1 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:09,320 Well, so good morning to everybody. 2 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,339 Thank you very much for being here today, again, 3 00:00:12,759 --> 00:00:15,800 second day of the International Conference on Bilingual Education. 4 00:00:17,059 --> 00:00:20,140 I have the great pleasure to introduce Lyd King. 5 00:00:22,620 --> 00:00:27,780 Lyd King is a graduate in modern languages from the University of Cambridge. 6 00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:38,939 he has extensive experience of language teaching at all levels and in all phases he's a specialist 7 00:00:38,939 --> 00:00:48,780 of in language learning pedagogy he was an advisor materials developer and chief examiner before 8 00:00:48,780 --> 00:00:54,840 becoming director of the Center for information and length on language teaching and research 9 00:00:54,840 --> 00:01:03,179 SEALT in 1992. I have to say that when I went to London, appointed as education 10 00:01:03,179 --> 00:01:11,760 counselor at the Spanish Embassy, I met SEALT a few days after my arrival and 11 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:21,840 since that moment we are, I think, good friends. I have to say that LEAD helped 12 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:32,680 us in our work. He supported all the embassies trying to do their job, that is, promoting 13 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:39,239 their languages. My job in the UK was to promote Spanish. Other embassies had to promote their 14 00:01:39,239 --> 00:01:46,719 own languages. And Lid, as director of SILT, was very supportive at all times with us, 15 00:01:46,719 --> 00:01:50,319 and we worked together, I think, very well, 16 00:01:50,319 --> 00:01:53,319 and it was a very pleasant period. 17 00:01:53,319 --> 00:01:57,319 In 2003, he left SILT because he was appointed 18 00:01:59,819 --> 00:02:03,980 as what they called at that time the champion of languages, 19 00:02:05,319 --> 00:02:09,479 which is the director of the National Languages Strategy, 20 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:13,599 I think, yeah. 21 00:02:13,599 --> 00:02:26,060 So in September 2003, he took up the post of National Director of Languages within the Department of Education and Skills at that time. 22 00:02:26,060 --> 00:02:33,319 and with responsibility for the effective implementation of the National Languages Strategies 23 00:02:33,319 --> 00:02:45,039 and its centerpiece of introducing an entitlement to language learning for all pupils in Key Stage 2 by 2009-2010. 24 00:02:45,039 --> 00:02:54,669 He coordinated the National Implementation Strategy for Primary Languages between 2003 and 2010. 25 00:02:54,669 --> 00:03:05,689 His role has also involved working with key partners to promote language learning and giving strategic advice to ministers on languages. 26 00:03:06,770 --> 00:03:18,389 Between 2006 and 2007, Lyd worked with Lord Daring on the languages review of which he is co-author. 27 00:03:18,389 --> 00:03:27,629 This updated the national strategy and set out a range of initiatives aimed at reforming 28 00:03:27,629 --> 00:03:31,050 languages education in England. 29 00:03:31,050 --> 00:03:41,430 Between October 2008 and March 2010, he continued his work as National Director for Languages 30 00:03:41,430 --> 00:03:51,030 on behalf of the DCSF, which was the name of the Department for Education, but within 31 00:03:51,030 --> 00:03:56,060 the languages company created for that purpose. 32 00:03:56,060 --> 00:04:02,219 Dr. King also works at European level. 33 00:04:02,219 --> 00:04:09,879 He has coordinated two European projects since 2008, Linguanet Worldwide and Languages in 34 00:04:09,879 --> 00:04:12,460 Europe. 35 00:04:12,460 --> 00:04:21,759 He is currently a member of the Comité Stratégique sur les Langues, advising the French Education Ministry. 36 00:04:22,779 --> 00:04:26,759 I have to say that Lyd and I, we talk in French. 37 00:04:27,740 --> 00:04:32,019 We have always talked in French, and we still do. 38 00:04:34,850 --> 00:04:41,170 He is also Honorary Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Linguists 39 00:04:41,170 --> 00:04:44,889 and Officier dans l'Ordre des Palmes Académiques. 40 00:04:45,410 --> 00:04:51,009 So I think it's a very good CV, and I welcome Lyd, and I give him the floor. 41 00:04:52,209 --> 00:04:54,470 Merci. Thank you, Xavier. 42 00:04:55,889 --> 00:05:00,790 I've come with an interesting CV, perhaps, 43 00:05:00,790 --> 00:05:02,509 but today I've come from a different country. 44 00:05:02,509 --> 00:05:04,769 it's called Political Country 45 00:05:04,769 --> 00:05:07,009 and I hope I'll come as a 46 00:05:07,009 --> 00:05:08,189 friendly native speaker 47 00:05:08,189 --> 00:05:10,050 to Clill Land 48 00:05:10,050 --> 00:05:12,850 to try and tell you a few things about 49 00:05:12,850 --> 00:05:14,930 what we think in Political 50 00:05:14,930 --> 00:05:16,730 Country about Clill Land 51 00:05:16,730 --> 00:05:18,889 or maybe give you some insights 52 00:05:18,889 --> 00:05:20,889 of course 53 00:05:20,889 --> 00:05:22,990 in one way it's a very simple 54 00:05:22,990 --> 00:05:23,329 matter 55 00:05:23,329 --> 00:05:26,889 I've had a fantastic day listening to 56 00:05:26,889 --> 00:05:28,529 all of your ideas and plans and 57 00:05:28,529 --> 00:05:31,269 the vibrancy and the enthusiasm 58 00:05:31,269 --> 00:05:35,029 you can touch it here, even when you think things aren't so wonderful, 59 00:05:35,370 --> 00:05:37,029 and that's important to know as well. 60 00:05:38,110 --> 00:05:41,910 But what is the big deal? What is the idea? 61 00:05:42,810 --> 00:05:44,230 It's really a very simple one. 62 00:05:46,170 --> 00:05:49,050 30 years ago, one of my predecessors at CILT, 63 00:05:49,670 --> 00:05:52,910 talking about what we then called intensive language learning, 64 00:05:53,550 --> 00:05:56,629 said this, the most significant feature of intensive language learning 65 00:05:56,629 --> 00:06:00,930 is the use of the language for some other purpose than merely learning it. 66 00:06:01,269 --> 00:06:10,790 that's it simple question is how do we do it we found a simple during the 67 00:06:10,790 --> 00:06:15,589 recent period we produced with Doe and another colleague Bernadette Holmes some 68 00:06:15,589 --> 00:06:20,730 guidelines on CLIL in England towards an integrated curriculum and at the 69 00:06:20,730 --> 00:06:25,129 beginning of that we said you know what's the big deal there's nothing new 70 00:06:25,129 --> 00:06:29,610 about linking language with meaning that's what we do when we learn to speak 71 00:06:29,610 --> 00:06:32,569 we learn to speak for purpose to communicate meaning 72 00:06:32,569 --> 00:06:36,410 and that helps us to access the world 73 00:06:36,410 --> 00:06:39,870 and the language we use also shapes our understanding of the world 74 00:06:39,870 --> 00:06:44,209 and there is a tradition in language learning 75 00:06:44,209 --> 00:06:45,970 foreign language learning if you like 76 00:06:45,970 --> 00:06:48,430 of that same accessing meaning 77 00:06:48,430 --> 00:06:50,970 in fact I just reminded myself 78 00:06:50,970 --> 00:06:52,170 reading a little article in here 79 00:06:52,170 --> 00:06:54,670 written by a very young woman called Doe Coyle 80 00:06:54,670 --> 00:06:56,290 because this book is a little bit old now 81 00:06:56,290 --> 00:06:58,790 in partnership with 82 00:06:58,790 --> 00:07:00,970 another very learned man 83 00:07:00,970 --> 00:07:03,129 about this question 84 00:07:03,129 --> 00:07:04,750 and he started off by saying 85 00:07:04,750 --> 00:07:06,730 of course this all began with the ancient Romans 86 00:07:06,730 --> 00:07:08,310 who used to use Greek slaves 87 00:07:08,310 --> 00:07:09,970 to communicate with their children 88 00:07:09,970 --> 00:07:12,970 about real things and then they would learn language 89 00:07:12,970 --> 00:07:14,850 so what we are doing 90 00:07:14,850 --> 00:07:15,250 now 91 00:07:15,250 --> 00:07:18,750 seen from that perspective is a simple thing 92 00:07:18,750 --> 00:07:20,709 however and perhaps 93 00:07:20,709 --> 00:07:22,250 we should regard it as something normal 94 00:07:22,250 --> 00:07:24,430 and when I looked around in preparing for this 95 00:07:24,430 --> 00:07:25,110 because it's not 96 00:07:25,110 --> 00:07:32,269 the center of my expertise I discovered that bilingual experiences are happening across 97 00:07:32,269 --> 00:07:38,430 Asia across Africa using language to do something else than to learn language 98 00:07:38,430 --> 00:07:48,680 perhaps though by the way if you were interested we're revising this at the moment because all of 99 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:54,220 the political framework from political land is out of date so it needs to be changed but it will 100 00:07:54,220 --> 00:08:01,120 make it better you can still see it either by going to that website or by sending me an email 101 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:05,300 if you're interested because I didn't bring lots of copies with me but you might be interested 102 00:08:05,300 --> 00:08:13,839 Xavier was talking about the situation the English situation and how many good things 103 00:08:13,839 --> 00:08:18,439 have happened over recent years but also things have started to change as well and that's the 104 00:08:18,439 --> 00:08:24,939 first indication, if you like, or perhaps a little lesson, that politics can affect pedagogy 105 00:08:24,939 --> 00:08:30,839 because things can change. And there might be some lessons for you in that. Let me just tell you 106 00:08:30,839 --> 00:08:37,279 very briefly a brief history of CLIL in England. It'll be very brief. I'm not going to go back to 107 00:08:37,279 --> 00:08:43,000 the ancient Greeks, but we could have gone back to the learning of Latin in the Tudor grammar school, 108 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:49,440 for example which was done in a very CLIL kind of way but more recently and things that I know 109 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:55,000 about in the 1980s there were a lot of attempts to combine subjects and there was even joint 110 00:08:55,000 --> 00:09:01,019 certification I remember going to see some of Spanish business studies and so on so people 111 00:09:01,019 --> 00:09:07,980 were doing that in schools then DoCoil pops up around that period of time there was some 112 00:09:07,980 --> 00:09:11,120 development of support and networks, training, ideas, 113 00:09:11,740 --> 00:09:13,419 a lot of it going on at Nottingham University, 114 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:14,500 where Doe was then. 115 00:09:15,539 --> 00:09:20,700 We had embassy support, which Javier mentioned yesterday, 116 00:09:21,179 --> 00:09:23,740 and the development of some showcase schools. 117 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:25,940 SILT, where I was working, 118 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,019 got some money to do a little project. 119 00:09:28,460 --> 00:09:29,799 Doe was involved in it again, 120 00:09:30,100 --> 00:09:33,039 working with schools to try and come up with some ideas 121 00:09:33,039 --> 00:09:34,440 about how to do this thing. 122 00:09:35,340 --> 00:09:36,480 We called it CLIP. 123 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,200 It was content and language integrated project. 124 00:09:39,299 --> 00:09:40,980 We like the clip, the idea of clip. 125 00:09:42,740 --> 00:09:44,899 2007 was actually quite important 126 00:09:44,899 --> 00:09:48,580 because the language review that Xavier mentioned 127 00:09:48,580 --> 00:09:53,019 gave an opening for really rethinking our languages curriculum 128 00:09:53,019 --> 00:09:56,600 in which content became a very central element of it. 129 00:09:56,919 --> 00:10:00,879 For some very concrete political reasons, I have to say, 130 00:10:01,259 --> 00:10:05,340 we found that lots of our pupils were being turned away from language 131 00:10:05,340 --> 00:10:07,480 because they found it boring and they found it difficult. 132 00:10:07,940 --> 00:10:11,220 And this was seen as a way of actually changing that situation, 133 00:10:11,519 --> 00:10:13,379 which is what the politicians wanted to happen. 134 00:10:14,580 --> 00:10:17,360 So politics impinged on that very well, 135 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,600 and that developed, that was the stimulus 136 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,200 for the guidelines that I just mentioned. 137 00:10:24,879 --> 00:10:27,139 And so that was going very well until we had an election. 138 00:10:27,759 --> 00:10:30,100 In 2011, we had an election and everything stopped. 139 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:32,480 So just a little... 140 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:34,440 Now, I'm not saying the same will happen with your election. 141 00:10:34,519 --> 00:10:35,100 I'm sure it went. 142 00:10:35,340 --> 00:10:36,740 but it can happen. 143 00:10:37,159 --> 00:10:38,600 Now, it doesn't stop. 144 00:10:38,740 --> 00:10:39,320 It changes. 145 00:10:40,179 --> 00:10:41,059 New things come. 146 00:10:41,179 --> 00:10:41,940 We have to rethink, 147 00:10:42,580 --> 00:10:45,559 and that's why the political aspect of this, 148 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:46,940 I think, is very important. 149 00:10:48,100 --> 00:10:50,460 Okay, that's something about England. 150 00:10:51,259 --> 00:10:53,460 I just wanted to say that the context 151 00:10:53,460 --> 00:10:55,500 in which I'm talking to you about this 152 00:10:55,500 --> 00:10:57,440 is something that Do mentioned yesterday, 153 00:10:58,379 --> 00:11:01,860 the massive change in how learning takes place. 154 00:11:01,860 --> 00:11:04,000 I mean, the analogies with the ancient Greeks 155 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:04,759 are very interesting, 156 00:11:04,759 --> 00:11:07,279 and maybe the essence of things stays the same. 157 00:11:07,580 --> 00:11:11,279 But we have moved from that, that's Erasmus, I think, 158 00:11:11,820 --> 00:11:15,799 image of learning, a wise man maybe talking to two or three wise 159 00:11:15,799 --> 00:11:18,220 or not so wise, probably boys, 160 00:11:18,539 --> 00:11:24,320 to this cartoon which is learning in the 21st century. 161 00:11:24,659 --> 00:11:25,539 I don't know if you can see that. 162 00:11:26,100 --> 00:11:28,720 C'est le cours d'anglais, je ne sais pas, j'entends rien. 163 00:11:29,740 --> 00:11:31,059 This is learning. 164 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:33,500 For those of you who don't know French, is this the English lesson? 165 00:11:33,500 --> 00:11:34,639 I don't know, I can't hear anything. 166 00:11:34,759 --> 00:11:57,500 There are so many people. Mass education. How do we transpose our ideas about education into this massive desire and need for everybody to be educated to the highest possible level? That's one of our big challenges, which I guess you are part of resolving or attempting to solve or attempting to take forward. 167 00:11:58,440 --> 00:11:59,659 I just thought of something. 168 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:02,279 This is a CLIL lesson, isn't it? 169 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,039 So I should start off by doing some scaffolding. 170 00:12:05,500 --> 00:12:06,899 And I forgot to do the scaffolding. 171 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:08,860 So here's the scaffolding. 172 00:12:09,379 --> 00:12:10,419 This is what we're going to do. 173 00:12:10,860 --> 00:12:12,519 I'm going to talk about what policy is. 174 00:12:14,139 --> 00:12:16,940 I'm going to ask the question, what is bilingual education? 175 00:12:18,620 --> 00:12:21,940 I'll come up with our working hypothesis on that fairly shortly. 176 00:12:21,940 --> 00:12:24,600 Talk a little bit about bilingual education in Europe, 177 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:30,200 but lead up to what the key, as I see it, policy-related challenges is, 178 00:12:30,299 --> 00:12:32,519 the word from policy land. 179 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,360 Okay, some preliminary issues, though, about policy. 180 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,759 Now, again, I refer to some of the work that we did. 181 00:12:41,860 --> 00:12:42,679 You might want to... 182 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,879 If anybody's interested, I can give you contact of it. 183 00:12:45,879 --> 00:12:49,820 It's a book about where we think Europe is going in policy terms 184 00:12:49,820 --> 00:12:51,740 in relation to languages. 185 00:12:52,700 --> 00:13:01,330 And one of the things we talk about in that is how policy actually happens, 186 00:13:01,529 --> 00:13:05,250 as opposed to the way that people like us think that it happens. 187 00:13:05,250 --> 00:13:11,889 You probably think that policy happens logically through doing some planning, 188 00:13:12,289 --> 00:13:18,169 doing a bit of research, coming up with a plan, seeing whether you can cost it, and off you go. 189 00:13:18,629 --> 00:13:20,549 Well, some of it's like that, 190 00:13:20,809 --> 00:13:27,350 but actually reality is mediated in different ways, 191 00:13:27,450 --> 00:13:30,110 and we explain this in greater detail there. 192 00:13:30,210 --> 00:13:33,169 I just want to leave you some thoughts in relation to this. 193 00:13:34,370 --> 00:13:35,690 One element is the vision. 194 00:13:36,350 --> 00:13:37,789 You all have a vision, I think, 195 00:13:37,970 --> 00:13:39,269 and it's very important to have a vision. 196 00:13:39,789 --> 00:13:40,429 What do you think? 197 00:13:40,970 --> 00:13:43,549 Why is this such a great thing that you're trying to do? 198 00:13:43,970 --> 00:13:46,549 What are your objectives in relation to children 199 00:13:47,169 --> 00:13:49,029 and children's understanding of the world? 200 00:13:49,029 --> 00:13:50,929 because that probably is one of the visions you have 201 00:13:50,929 --> 00:13:53,269 and the things that drive you most of all. 202 00:13:54,830 --> 00:13:56,649 But there's also the actual decisions, 203 00:13:56,850 --> 00:13:58,110 the laws and the regulations, 204 00:13:59,710 --> 00:14:01,509 the laws about the curriculum, 205 00:14:01,690 --> 00:14:03,490 what can you teach, what can't you teach, 206 00:14:03,889 --> 00:14:04,970 whatever it might be. 207 00:14:06,070 --> 00:14:07,690 And then there's a third lot of things 208 00:14:07,690 --> 00:14:09,549 which are very interesting, 209 00:14:09,730 --> 00:14:11,110 which is actually performance. 210 00:14:11,529 --> 00:14:13,690 What we actually do. 211 00:14:14,590 --> 00:14:16,610 And there is very often a dislocation 212 00:14:16,610 --> 00:14:19,049 between any of those three. 213 00:14:19,990 --> 00:14:23,909 For example, in many countries in Europe, 214 00:14:23,909 --> 00:14:27,009 the statement about which languages are taught 215 00:14:27,009 --> 00:14:32,470 is not the same as which languages are actually learnt. 216 00:14:33,509 --> 00:14:36,190 There's usually a much larger range of languages 217 00:14:36,190 --> 00:14:39,889 which could be taught than are actually taught. 218 00:14:40,289 --> 00:14:44,049 And so the policy is the combination of all of those things. 219 00:14:44,870 --> 00:14:46,389 If you're interested in those issues, 220 00:14:46,610 --> 00:14:49,809 please read the book, because I think it is fascinating to find out. 221 00:14:50,009 --> 00:14:53,370 Particularly come with somebody who didn't originate in policy land 222 00:14:53,370 --> 00:14:56,110 and comes to see how these things happen and what happens, 223 00:14:56,350 --> 00:14:59,529 sometimes for individual prejudices by ministers. 224 00:15:00,129 --> 00:15:01,309 If I give you one little example, 225 00:15:01,629 --> 00:15:04,110 I don't want to get too anecdotal because there's not time. 226 00:15:04,549 --> 00:15:06,929 One of our very important policies 227 00:15:06,929 --> 00:15:11,509 was a new assessment system called the Languages Ladder, 228 00:15:11,509 --> 00:15:13,070 which I think was very good, 229 00:15:13,070 --> 00:15:18,389 and it fitted into making small steps small advances in languages there was a very good 230 00:15:18,389 --> 00:15:24,309 vision for having that and a very good pedagogical reason for doing it one of the reasons that we 231 00:15:24,309 --> 00:15:30,009 were able to do it was the minister at the time who is now the plenipotentiary foreign secretary 232 00:15:30,009 --> 00:15:36,250 for the european union liked the idea of her children getting swimming certificates which 233 00:15:36,250 --> 00:15:41,429 they could put on the wall in the bath so she said why isn't there something like that for 234 00:15:41,429 --> 00:15:46,509 languages. Oh, yes, minister, we just thought of that. Here we are. So they can be decided 235 00:15:46,509 --> 00:15:52,289 because of prejudices by ministers, sometimes good ones, sometimes not so good ones, but 236 00:15:52,289 --> 00:15:58,750 I won't mention those. So policy is not just what is written down. It's the way that people 237 00:15:58,750 --> 00:16:11,549 behave, and it is the customs and traditions that people have. Within that, there are also 238 00:16:11,549 --> 00:16:16,870 So three key issues about policy, which have some relevance to our discussions this week 239 00:16:16,870 --> 00:16:25,110 I think. The first one is the relationship between explicit and implicit policy. I kind 240 00:16:25,110 --> 00:16:31,149 of touched on that already. The idea, what we think, is that policy is decided in this 241 00:16:31,149 --> 00:16:37,970 logical way and we want a new policy on languages, the objective is to increase the number of 242 00:16:37,970 --> 00:16:43,350 people studying Spanish, so we've researched it, we'll put this into place, we'll measure 243 00:16:43,350 --> 00:16:49,350 and see how well we've done, etc., etc. That sounds like real policy. Formal language policy 244 00:16:49,350 --> 00:16:54,970 making, if you like. In reality, actually only a minority of policies function in that 245 00:16:54,970 --> 00:17:01,330 way, but in general, that's what we think should be the ideal form. When we actually 246 00:17:01,330 --> 00:17:07,730 look to see what influences language education choices, the language behavior of individuals, 247 00:17:07,970 --> 00:17:13,289 social groups and nations, we see that that's much too limiting. 248 00:17:14,349 --> 00:17:17,190 We need to distinguish that kind of language policy 249 00:17:17,190 --> 00:17:21,089 from the operation of economic, social, political forces 250 00:17:21,089 --> 00:17:23,190 that impact on people's choices. 251 00:17:23,750 --> 00:17:27,789 And the role of English in the world today is a very good case in point. 252 00:17:28,250 --> 00:17:31,109 I don't think there is any country, or no, there is no country in Europe, 253 00:17:31,109 --> 00:17:36,569 there are countries outside Europe which say that English is our main foreign language. 254 00:17:36,569 --> 00:17:38,190 but it is 255 00:17:38,190 --> 00:17:40,789 and those are choices that people 256 00:17:40,789 --> 00:17:42,369 individuals are making 257 00:17:42,369 --> 00:17:44,970 so understanding 258 00:17:44,970 --> 00:17:46,670 that between what is explicit 259 00:17:46,670 --> 00:17:48,529 and implicit is very important 260 00:17:48,529 --> 00:17:50,049 there are other ways that 261 00:17:50,049 --> 00:17:51,609 implicit 262 00:17:51,609 --> 00:17:54,890 policy 263 00:17:54,890 --> 00:17:56,789 can impact 264 00:17:56,789 --> 00:17:58,450 here's a statement 265 00:17:58,450 --> 00:17:59,670 which I never know who said 266 00:17:59,670 --> 00:18:02,630 I think it was Mao Zedong but it might have been Milton Friedman 267 00:18:02,630 --> 00:18:04,549 so it's either a very left wing 268 00:18:04,549 --> 00:18:05,890 or a very right wing person 269 00:18:06,430 --> 00:18:07,990 There's no such thing as no policy. 270 00:18:08,190 --> 00:18:10,829 An absence of policy means the decision not to do something. 271 00:18:11,430 --> 00:18:13,349 That's the case in the UK, for example. 272 00:18:13,829 --> 00:18:18,750 We have a policy that you don't have to study a language after 14. 273 00:18:19,789 --> 00:18:24,910 So the decision is that's not an absence of policy, that's a policy. 274 00:18:26,430 --> 00:18:28,589 And similar examples you can find. 275 00:18:28,589 --> 00:18:31,049 So there is no such thing as no policy. 276 00:18:31,210 --> 00:18:32,890 That could work in another kind of way. 277 00:18:32,890 --> 00:18:35,990 well, interestingly enough, there is no policy in the UK 278 00:18:35,990 --> 00:18:38,170 about what the official language is. 279 00:18:39,049 --> 00:18:39,950 We don't need one. 280 00:18:40,349 --> 00:18:42,769 There's no question about English. 281 00:18:44,049 --> 00:18:46,769 But some countries have it written into their constitution. 282 00:18:47,529 --> 00:18:51,230 So policy explicit is not the only thing. 283 00:18:54,180 --> 00:18:56,460 There's another key issue that we unearthed, 284 00:18:56,500 --> 00:18:58,259 which is the distinction and also the connection 285 00:18:58,259 --> 00:19:01,400 between language policy and policies about language. 286 00:19:02,460 --> 00:19:03,539 And what I mean by that, 287 00:19:03,539 --> 00:19:05,519 and it's something that somebody's already touched upon 288 00:19:05,519 --> 00:19:07,839 and it's very relevant to the CLIL argument, I think, 289 00:19:08,339 --> 00:19:11,119 which is that if you look around, 290 00:19:11,220 --> 00:19:14,740 you'll find many, many statements of policy about language. 291 00:19:15,380 --> 00:19:17,420 Many countries have language policies. 292 00:19:17,940 --> 00:19:22,099 I found this on the web. 293 00:19:22,180 --> 00:19:23,539 Sorry for the rather dramatic... 294 00:19:26,299 --> 00:19:27,200 Oops, I missed one. 295 00:19:29,619 --> 00:19:31,740 No, I've made a mistake. 296 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,180 It's hidden, I think, by mistake, 297 00:19:34,180 --> 00:19:35,519 so I'll have to find it for you later. 298 00:19:35,900 --> 00:19:40,180 But what it is, it's a list of different kinds of policies, 299 00:19:40,980 --> 00:19:41,700 language policies. 300 00:19:42,660 --> 00:19:45,059 It doesn't matter too much in detail. 301 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:52,049 And you will find that there are policies 302 00:19:52,049 --> 00:19:54,750 about assimilation policies, non-intervention policies, 303 00:19:55,890 --> 00:19:58,769 bilingual policies, etc., etc., etc. 304 00:19:59,569 --> 00:20:02,549 And he categorizes language policies throughout the world. 305 00:20:03,549 --> 00:20:08,930 What's interesting about that is not to go into the detail of what all those policies mean. 306 00:20:09,670 --> 00:20:12,930 For example, French has got an assimilation policy. 307 00:20:13,309 --> 00:20:16,250 French is a dominant language within the country, for example. 308 00:20:16,250 --> 00:20:37,720 But that very few of those policies, very few of those policies include mother tongue, foreign language, community language in a comprehensive policy. 309 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:44,440 So we have a dislocation between what the policy is for Spanish, what the policy is for the teaching of English, 310 00:20:44,740 --> 00:20:51,140 sometimes even between the teaching of English and the teaching of other foreign languages and the teaching of immigrant languages, 311 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:53,279 whereas we know there is a connection. 312 00:20:54,140 --> 00:21:00,119 And I think that's something that is very relevant to thinking about CLIL and how CLIL might develop. 313 00:21:00,859 --> 00:21:09,339 And the third issue is, despite ourselves, we who live in language land think that languages are so important. 314 00:21:09,539 --> 00:21:15,180 Politicians actually think it's pretty important, but there are other issues that they think are more important. 315 00:21:15,740 --> 00:21:28,099 There are big social economic drivers, and our language policy, and I think this is probably the key point to try to understand and see what implications it has for us, is part of that. 316 00:21:28,099 --> 00:21:31,240 certainly viewed from politics 317 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,400 land. So for example 318 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,180 you talked yesterday 319 00:21:35,180 --> 00:21:36,980 Xavier a lot about standards 320 00:21:36,980 --> 00:21:39,000 politicians throughout Europe 321 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,140 are obsessed with standards, raising 322 00:21:41,140 --> 00:21:43,039 standards and they want to know 323 00:21:43,039 --> 00:21:45,400 that what you're doing is raising standards 324 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,160 now you might think well there are 325 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:48,640 other things that are more important 326 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:50,579 but that's what the politicians want to know 327 00:21:50,579 --> 00:21:52,859 and how much and what by 328 00:21:52,859 --> 00:21:55,099 and so those are issues you have to take 329 00:21:55,099 --> 00:21:57,119 into account whether you like that idea 330 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:01,319 or not because it relates to issues of funding and finance. 331 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:02,839 But they're not the only issues. 332 00:22:03,539 --> 00:22:07,619 The dramatic slide that I mistakenly found, 333 00:22:08,420 --> 00:22:12,200 these were what I identified from my experience in England 334 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:16,240 working with policy makers as the main drivers 335 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:21,440 which impacted on education and impacted, therefore, on language. 336 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,220 That was one of them, raising education. 337 00:22:24,220 --> 00:22:26,220 The last government and the current government 338 00:22:26,220 --> 00:22:32,480 totally obsessed, raising, pushing standards up, measuring standards, getting standards higher. 339 00:22:32,700 --> 00:22:37,359 If we could prove that learning a foreign language, and I think we can, 340 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,359 but we need to do that in polity terms, could raise your general cognitive level 341 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:47,279 and convince the politicians of that, you would get funding for doing lots of things. 342 00:22:49,420 --> 00:22:53,099 Skills for employability and mobility has been another major, 343 00:22:53,259 --> 00:22:57,380 and we have a difficulty in England in that respect because people are not convinced 344 00:22:57,380 --> 00:23:03,839 that you need a language other than English for employability and mobility. 345 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:05,539 You don't have that problem in Spain. 346 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:10,500 I think everybody knows it to be the case, whether it is or not, that you need English. 347 00:23:11,180 --> 00:23:14,460 And parents know that, headteachers know that, and so on. 348 00:23:16,519 --> 00:23:19,579 Another policy driver, though, is the softer things. 349 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,000 Civilisation and culture, our present government, are very keen on this. 350 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:25,559 In fact, one of our ministers recently said 351 00:23:25,559 --> 00:23:28,460 it's a mark of being an Englishman 352 00:23:28,460 --> 00:23:29,500 to be able to speak French 353 00:23:29,500 --> 00:23:33,490 it's about the culture, about that joint 354 00:23:33,490 --> 00:23:38,690 culture. Globalisation 355 00:23:38,690 --> 00:23:40,410 competitiveness, I think 356 00:23:40,410 --> 00:23:42,730 those are big issues 357 00:23:42,730 --> 00:23:44,809 particularly post 2001 358 00:23:44,809 --> 00:23:46,170 with the financial crisis 359 00:23:46,170 --> 00:23:47,569 the economic arguments 360 00:23:47,569 --> 00:23:48,970 for 361 00:23:48,970 --> 00:23:53,329 multilingualism 362 00:23:53,329 --> 00:23:54,829 very very important 363 00:23:54,829 --> 00:23:56,710 arguments within the European 364 00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:58,470 Union, less effective 365 00:23:58,470 --> 00:24:01,289 within England and lastly 366 00:24:01,289 --> 00:24:03,109 and this is very important for us but is 367 00:24:03,109 --> 00:24:05,369 probably downplayed in some areas 368 00:24:05,369 --> 00:24:07,269 the whole argument about social cohesion 369 00:24:07,269 --> 00:24:09,230 and identity actually 370 00:24:09,230 --> 00:24:11,349 I think this is one of the most critical arguments 371 00:24:11,349 --> 00:24:13,390 about language which is sometimes ignored 372 00:24:13,390 --> 00:24:15,150 we are living in these 373 00:24:15,150 --> 00:24:17,170 really complicated complex 374 00:24:17,170 --> 00:24:18,710 multilingual multicultural 375 00:24:18,710 --> 00:24:21,369 societies where 376 00:24:21,369 --> 00:24:23,309 mobility becomes normal 377 00:24:23,309 --> 00:24:25,430 intermarriage of all kinds 378 00:24:25,430 --> 00:24:26,529 becomes normal 379 00:24:26,529 --> 00:24:33,130 the world is transformed since the days of what even my youth and my parents my my grandfather 380 00:24:33,130 --> 00:24:40,630 or father traveled only to fight wars that was it until the 1960s or 70s when we came in a little 381 00:24:40,630 --> 00:24:47,890 car to spain and this was an amazing adventure well look now my my son's got a girlfriend in 382 00:24:47,890 --> 00:24:54,950 mumbai and they fly out to mumbai to meet periodically the world has changed enormously 383 00:24:54,950 --> 00:25:22,029 Our cities are such different things, so the whole identity question, social cohesion question, becomes actually a matter of very, very vital policy, and we see the effects of not dealing with that in riots in Paris and in London and in other places, in my belief, and the question is, what is what you got to do has got to do with that? 384 00:25:22,029 --> 00:25:28,109 because I think it does because I think you are raising if you get things right a generation which 385 00:25:28,109 --> 00:25:35,849 is open to difference as opposed to one which is closed and tending towards xenophobia so some big 386 00:25:35,849 --> 00:25:41,289 policy issues which we need to think about in terms of what we do not every day because you've 387 00:25:41,289 --> 00:25:48,930 got to get on with the teaching as well but they are important issues already we can see that I 388 00:25:48,930 --> 00:25:54,210 just wanted to show you that here for example are some of the the Council of 389 00:25:54,210 --> 00:25:58,529 Europe carried out some policy profiles of different countries in Europe I was 390 00:25:58,529 --> 00:26:01,990 involved in one in Armenia which was fascinating and those are some of the 391 00:26:01,990 --> 00:26:09,170 issues that they raised as being broad issues that met most countries where pro 392 00:26:09,170 --> 00:26:17,680 profiles took place were saying about language and you will see again there 393 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,940 the quality standards and coherence issue coming in. 394 00:26:24,730 --> 00:26:26,109 There's our English lesson again. 395 00:26:26,650 --> 00:26:28,329 That's the challenge. 396 00:26:28,509 --> 00:26:36,849 The challenge for you, the challenge for turning that mass 397 00:26:36,849 --> 00:26:40,630 into real individuals who can really relate to others 398 00:26:40,630 --> 00:26:42,930 in these complex societies and can be mobile 399 00:26:42,930 --> 00:26:48,990 and can be successful in the current economy. 400 00:26:50,009 --> 00:26:53,430 So if the politics are tricky, 401 00:26:53,430 --> 00:27:08,799 What about the terminology? That's what I want to go on to now because there's a, oh sorry, there is something, excuse me a minute. 402 00:27:12,529 --> 00:27:21,769 Okay, yeah. What about the terminology? Now we're okay. 403 00:27:25,970 --> 00:27:35,029 I once spent a confused hour at a conference talking to somebody about bilingual education and she was actually listening most of the time 404 00:27:35,029 --> 00:27:36,910 because she was a very forceful woman. 405 00:27:37,609 --> 00:27:40,349 And it was only well into the conversation 406 00:27:40,349 --> 00:27:41,509 that I understood what she meant. 407 00:27:41,829 --> 00:27:43,210 And what she meant was teaching 408 00:27:43,210 --> 00:27:46,769 in which everything was translated. 409 00:27:48,309 --> 00:27:51,930 It was sort of like Michel Thomas. 410 00:27:53,109 --> 00:27:54,609 That was what she called bilingualism. 411 00:27:55,130 --> 00:27:56,809 So what is bilingualism? 412 00:27:56,849 --> 00:27:58,549 What do you understand by bilingualism? 413 00:27:59,009 --> 00:28:01,869 Now, I just checked up recently 414 00:28:01,869 --> 00:28:07,670 and we can find bilingual programs in all of those places and more. 415 00:28:08,710 --> 00:28:13,269 And we can find all of these different types 416 00:28:13,269 --> 00:28:16,910 as they describe them of bilingual teaching. 417 00:28:17,029 --> 00:28:18,970 And we could add in CLIL, which we don't have there, 418 00:28:18,970 --> 00:28:20,809 or we could add in intensive. 419 00:28:24,759 --> 00:28:30,380 So that was from my 21st century oracle called Google. 420 00:28:31,059 --> 00:28:32,059 That's what we found. 421 00:28:32,059 --> 00:28:58,099 So we've got all of those different kinds of bilingualism, and the key idea, if there is a common idea, is about learning through language new content, but a lot, and I think Fred might have something to say about that tomorrow, a lot of the bilingualism that we talked about there, is it, well here's a question for you, is it different from what you're doing? 422 00:28:58,099 --> 00:29:05,220 Because a lot of it is about bilingual education for people whose first language is not the national language. 423 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,960 Bilingual education for immigrant populations and so on. 424 00:29:11,819 --> 00:29:16,299 And there is a very... I don't apologise for spending some time... 425 00:29:16,299 --> 00:29:19,819 Sorry, I keep on showing you that and then taking it away again. We'll get there in the end. 426 00:29:20,019 --> 00:29:28,930 I don't apologise for spending a little diversion to talk about that 427 00:29:28,930 --> 00:29:30,470 because I think it does have some relevance, 428 00:29:31,130 --> 00:29:35,369 particularly in the way the policy people have reacted to it. 429 00:29:36,829 --> 00:29:39,829 Particularly in the States, it's become a very controversial issue. 430 00:29:40,930 --> 00:29:43,430 This cartoon illustrates it. 431 00:29:43,670 --> 00:29:45,490 I don't know if you want to help out by reading the Spanish. 432 00:29:48,099 --> 00:29:48,500 Hola. 433 00:29:49,180 --> 00:29:50,019 Read the Spanish. 434 00:29:51,039 --> 00:29:52,579 Why don't you want to learn English? 435 00:29:54,559 --> 00:29:57,160 That's it. I'm declaring English as the official language. 436 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,900 ballots and store signs will all be in English 437 00:30:01,900 --> 00:30:06,160 well that reminds me 438 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:07,819 bilingual education should be ended 439 00:30:07,819 --> 00:30:09,359 I want to learn English 440 00:30:09,359 --> 00:30:10,539 no comprendo 441 00:30:10,539 --> 00:30:11,059 so 442 00:30:11,059 --> 00:30:13,039 now 443 00:30:13,039 --> 00:30:16,539 it has become a controversial issue 444 00:30:16,539 --> 00:30:17,359 in the states 445 00:30:17,359 --> 00:30:20,079 the idea behind that 446 00:30:20,079 --> 00:30:21,920 bilingual programs 447 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,559 and I hesitate to say that 448 00:30:24,559 --> 00:30:26,259 in front of real experts 449 00:30:26,259 --> 00:30:28,000 but there's a lot of evidence for this. 450 00:30:28,079 --> 00:30:30,259 This is the academic evidence, 451 00:30:30,740 --> 00:30:36,019 is that you access knowledge not by suppressing your first language, 452 00:30:36,220 --> 00:30:38,079 but by supporting your first language, 453 00:30:38,319 --> 00:30:41,680 and through that you become better at learning the new language, 454 00:30:41,859 --> 00:30:44,079 in this case English, or whatever it might be. 455 00:30:44,180 --> 00:30:46,880 And I think that's pretty, as far as I can read it, 456 00:30:46,940 --> 00:30:49,920 as much as anything's incontrovertible, it's incontrovertible. 457 00:30:50,799 --> 00:30:54,140 So why this? Why has it changed? 458 00:30:54,140 --> 00:31:03,460 Well, the policy change in the U.S. is quite instructive. 1968, Bilingual Education Act. 459 00:31:05,859 --> 00:31:12,400 Congress mandated bilingual education in order to give immigrants access to education in their first language. 460 00:31:12,759 --> 00:31:18,460 Federal spending up to $150 million by 1979. 461 00:31:19,140 --> 00:31:21,859 1974, there was a Supreme Court ruling 462 00:31:21,859 --> 00:31:25,799 which said that San Francisco schools 463 00:31:25,799 --> 00:31:27,700 were violating students' rights 464 00:31:27,700 --> 00:31:31,359 when they didn't give them special provisions. 465 00:31:34,119 --> 00:31:35,859 Then, a debate. 466 00:31:36,799 --> 00:31:39,099 2001, no child left behind, 467 00:31:40,099 --> 00:31:41,980 which we imitated in the UK. 468 00:31:42,660 --> 00:31:43,859 We had a very similar thing, 469 00:31:43,859 --> 00:31:46,240 but that made no provision 470 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,819 for bilingual education, 471 00:31:49,220 --> 00:31:52,500 but emphasised accountability in English only. 472 00:31:53,539 --> 00:31:55,940 And then there was another court case in 2009. 473 00:31:57,880 --> 00:31:59,680 The majority opinion stated, 474 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,680 research on early language learning instruction, 475 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:04,140 English language learning instruction, 476 00:32:04,140 --> 00:32:07,339 indicates there is documented academic support 477 00:32:07,339 --> 00:32:09,799 for the view that structured English immersion 478 00:32:09,799 --> 00:32:12,380 is more effective than bilingual education. 479 00:32:13,380 --> 00:32:18,960 Now, why are judges taking decisions about academic research? 480 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:21,160 I think that's the point. 481 00:32:21,799 --> 00:32:25,359 These are mainly political, not pedagogic decisions. 482 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:30,059 So if you ignore politics, you are weakened. 483 00:32:30,500 --> 00:32:31,440 You need to understand. 484 00:32:31,599 --> 00:32:32,799 Now, what has been going on? 485 00:32:32,799 --> 00:32:33,680 I don't pretend to know. 486 00:32:33,779 --> 00:32:37,319 We have colleagues here who know far more about the U.S. than I do, 487 00:32:37,359 --> 00:32:39,460 and I'm not holding up the U.S. as an example 488 00:32:39,460 --> 00:32:42,400 because a very similar thing has happened in Europe. 489 00:32:42,740 --> 00:32:44,180 And I'll say something about that in a minute. 490 00:32:44,980 --> 00:32:48,519 Perhaps not as dramatically, but there has been that same kind of tendency. 491 00:32:49,579 --> 00:32:53,900 What we end up is, there we are, the poor, sorry, bilingual education has been voted down, 492 00:32:54,380 --> 00:32:56,819 so we can't help you anymore, you'll probably fall behind. 493 00:32:57,180 --> 00:32:59,799 Oh well, and the poor little boy doesn't even know what she's talking about. 494 00:33:00,500 --> 00:33:00,900 It's sad. 495 00:33:01,839 --> 00:33:03,559 I say the same thing has happened in Europe. 496 00:33:04,740 --> 00:33:09,079 There has been a retrenchment in the last few years, which I have observed, 497 00:33:09,460 --> 00:33:15,980 which is showing a level of fear about supporting immigrant languages. 498 00:33:17,039 --> 00:33:20,079 And all of the countries in the Education Committee 499 00:33:20,079 --> 00:33:25,160 have pulled back from statements of giving support to minority languages, 500 00:33:26,420 --> 00:33:29,960 stressing only the importance of learning the national language. 501 00:33:30,039 --> 00:33:32,140 Well, nobody actually argues about learning the national language. 502 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,220 Of course everybody will learn the national language. 503 00:33:34,220 --> 00:33:54,500 So I think there are some lessons there about how politics impinges on what is shown to be pedagogically the right thing to do and how multilingualism is a hot potato politically in the current era. 504 00:33:54,500 --> 00:33:56,539 So that's something for us to think about. 505 00:33:56,859 --> 00:34:00,779 But you might say, well, we're actually talking about something different. 506 00:34:01,079 --> 00:34:02,480 I would just leave you that as a question. 507 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,380 Are we talking about something different? 508 00:34:04,859 --> 00:34:07,180 Or are we missing something? 509 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:14,820 Because that aspect of CLIL or bilingualism isn't integrated into what we do all the time. 510 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:15,519 It's a question. 511 00:34:19,210 --> 00:34:23,349 So what are we centrally talking about at your conference? 512 00:34:23,349 --> 00:34:34,110 Well, here's what we said in our national guidelines. 2009 goes back to the simple definition. 513 00:34:34,110 --> 00:34:38,650 Language is used as a tool to develop new learning. But just to go back to my previous 514 00:34:38,650 --> 00:34:45,130 point, that's why I think we do conceptually need to bring the other bilingual experience 515 00:34:45,130 --> 00:34:51,869 into that, because that's precisely what that's doing. Complementary value, process and use 516 00:34:51,869 --> 00:34:57,250 language to acquire new knowledge and skills and make progress in both language and subject 517 00:34:57,250 --> 00:35:03,809 area content. And you're also familiar, because though she doesn't like talking about this 518 00:35:03,809 --> 00:35:09,769 too much, so I'm going to leave it, that's the four Cs, which are a kind of description 519 00:35:09,769 --> 00:35:16,809 of the approach, but not a mantra or not something to be, you know, that's what I think those 520 00:35:16,809 --> 00:35:21,449 concern is. That's what we're talking about, I think. So the other things I've mentioned 521 00:35:21,449 --> 00:35:28,110 have impact on that, but that's our central theme for today. 522 00:35:28,309 --> 00:35:35,869 So where is that going in Europe, and what are the messages from political land 523 00:35:35,869 --> 00:35:40,269 which might help us to understand better? 524 00:35:40,369 --> 00:35:42,929 Well, on one level, things look good. 525 00:35:43,489 --> 00:35:46,809 Despite what I've said about multilingualism more broadly, 526 00:35:46,809 --> 00:35:50,570 the European Commission is very committed to the idea of CLIL. 527 00:35:51,449 --> 00:35:55,250 They describe its benefits, there's some of them, 528 00:35:57,550 --> 00:36:00,389 but interculturality, improving competence, 529 00:36:01,489 --> 00:36:03,329 developing multilingual interests, 530 00:36:07,030 --> 00:36:09,289 I mean, I think you would want to be more radical than this. 531 00:36:11,010 --> 00:36:12,750 The second one's interesting, isn't it? 532 00:36:12,750 --> 00:36:14,550 It doesn't require more teaching hours. 533 00:36:15,289 --> 00:36:16,789 That's not what you were telling us yesterday. 534 00:36:18,409 --> 00:36:20,110 But that's what the European Union thinks. 535 00:36:21,110 --> 00:36:22,309 But, so, it's positive. 536 00:36:23,789 --> 00:36:30,110 they've got a website devoted to CLIL, the programs specifically support CLIL approaches. 537 00:36:32,510 --> 00:36:38,590 That's very much paralleled by work that's going on in the Council of Europe. Recent work on the 538 00:36:38,590 --> 00:36:43,949 languages of education or languages of schooling. It seems to move from one to another. There was 539 00:36:43,949 --> 00:36:49,230 a conference last year in Geneva which was very interesting in that respect and where, 540 00:36:49,230 --> 00:36:58,110 where, for example, a publication was produced about the language needed for science. 541 00:36:58,110 --> 00:37:05,210 Those were the headings. I won't go into the detail, but it goes to quite a detail level, 542 00:37:05,210 --> 00:37:10,250 not just about vocabulary, but about the linguistic and semiotic competencies needed for science 543 00:37:10,250 --> 00:37:16,130 education. That impinges very much on what you're doing, but again, it's coming from 544 00:37:16,130 --> 00:37:18,210 somewhere slightly different. I think it's 545 00:37:18,210 --> 00:37:20,130 something you might want to look into. Personally, 546 00:37:20,449 --> 00:37:22,070 I don't know what you think. I'm not sure. 547 00:37:22,210 --> 00:37:24,070 I'm not convinced about 548 00:37:24,070 --> 00:37:26,329 whether we have, in the context 549 00:37:26,329 --> 00:37:27,849 of language learning, 550 00:37:28,269 --> 00:37:30,190 language for science, language for history, 551 00:37:30,389 --> 00:37:32,449 language for geography, language for... 552 00:37:32,449 --> 00:37:33,949 I'm more interested 553 00:37:33,949 --> 00:37:36,150 perhaps in the very simple 554 00:37:36,150 --> 00:37:38,110 distinction between language for basic 555 00:37:38,110 --> 00:37:40,210 communication to academic 556 00:37:40,210 --> 00:37:42,130 language, which everybody needs to be able 557 00:37:42,130 --> 00:37:43,590 to acquire and access 558 00:37:43,590 --> 00:37:45,829 knowledge at a higher 559 00:37:45,829 --> 00:37:47,610 level, the Bix and Kalp discussion 560 00:37:47,610 --> 00:37:49,590 which I think somebody is talking about later 561 00:37:49,590 --> 00:37:51,190 because I think actually 562 00:37:51,190 --> 00:37:53,369 apart from the vocabulary 563 00:37:53,369 --> 00:37:55,550 the language you need to operate 564 00:37:55,550 --> 00:37:57,530 in science is not different from the language 565 00:37:57,530 --> 00:37:59,210 you need to operate in history 566 00:37:59,210 --> 00:38:00,929 if you're talking of presentation 567 00:38:00,929 --> 00:38:03,750 the language acts that are important 568 00:38:03,750 --> 00:38:05,650 however, that's a little bit 569 00:38:05,650 --> 00:38:07,809 of an aside and let's leave it 570 00:38:07,809 --> 00:38:08,670 so 571 00:38:08,670 --> 00:38:11,510 all of that though 572 00:38:11,510 --> 00:38:13,570 from the European Union, from the 573 00:38:13,570 --> 00:38:17,429 Council of Europe is very much 574 00:38:17,429 --> 00:38:20,550 at the level of ideas, the vision that I was talking about 575 00:38:20,550 --> 00:38:23,409 earlier. It's yet to be translated into legislation 576 00:38:23,409 --> 00:38:26,409 or regulation, but I think it probably does impact 577 00:38:26,409 --> 00:38:28,889 on what people actually do. 578 00:38:29,869 --> 00:38:32,530 The reality may be less developed 579 00:38:32,530 --> 00:38:35,429 than the vision, but it's moving very far and 580 00:38:35,429 --> 00:38:38,050 very fast. Of course, in Spain, I think you're 581 00:38:38,050 --> 00:38:41,690 at the head. You might not always feel like it, but you are 582 00:38:41,690 --> 00:38:45,829 in terms of the scope of what is being attempted 583 00:38:45,829 --> 00:38:51,289 and the amount of thinking that is going into that process. 584 00:38:52,510 --> 00:38:59,050 But it is happening. 585 00:38:59,829 --> 00:39:02,670 If you look at Eurydice 2008, for example, 586 00:39:03,889 --> 00:39:08,909 CLIL is listed in there in this P-Data book. 587 00:39:08,909 --> 00:39:11,550 and every country in Europe 588 00:39:11,550 --> 00:39:13,690 with the exceptions of Malta 589 00:39:13,690 --> 00:39:15,969 and Luxembourg 590 00:39:15,969 --> 00:39:17,590 no sorry, with the exceptions of 591 00:39:17,590 --> 00:39:19,670 Greece, Iceland and Liechtenstein 592 00:39:19,670 --> 00:39:21,849 and Denmark strangely enough 593 00:39:21,849 --> 00:39:23,869 were doing some kind of CLIL work 594 00:39:23,869 --> 00:39:25,610 the only countries, I got it 595 00:39:25,610 --> 00:39:27,210 the wrong way around, the only ones where 596 00:39:27,210 --> 00:39:29,230 old schools were involved in CLIL were 597 00:39:29,230 --> 00:39:30,409 Malta and Luxembourg 598 00:39:30,409 --> 00:39:32,630 but CLIL is very common throughout 599 00:39:32,630 --> 00:39:35,130 Europe and of course that's a 600 00:39:35,130 --> 00:39:36,969 formal position, you know more than I do 601 00:39:36,969 --> 00:39:39,449 which moved on since then. 602 00:39:40,429 --> 00:39:45,690 Even so, I'm still thinking about trying to grasp definition. 603 00:39:46,590 --> 00:39:49,670 I think there are distinctions within Europe 604 00:39:49,670 --> 00:39:51,849 because there are a range of practices. 605 00:39:53,050 --> 00:39:55,449 Just one example, which could be an important distinction. 606 00:39:56,070 --> 00:40:01,010 I was in Prague for a conference on bilingual French schools 607 00:40:01,010 --> 00:40:02,050 a couple of years ago. 608 00:40:02,050 --> 00:40:07,989 and also I've done quite a bit of work on policy in Bulgaria 609 00:40:07,989 --> 00:40:11,230 and in many Eastern European countries 610 00:40:11,230 --> 00:40:12,769 there are bilingual schools 611 00:40:12,769 --> 00:40:16,570 which are quite clearly a very elitist kind of bilingual. 612 00:40:17,050 --> 00:40:20,389 I've got no problem with that in itself. 613 00:40:20,869 --> 00:40:22,530 They are, as somebody said, 614 00:40:22,889 --> 00:40:25,789 to turn Czech engineers into French engineers 615 00:40:25,789 --> 00:40:27,949 or whatever it might be 616 00:40:27,949 --> 00:40:30,269 and they're based on selection 617 00:40:30,269 --> 00:40:32,789 and that is what they are for. 618 00:40:32,849 --> 00:40:34,409 That's a kind of bilingualism. 619 00:40:34,670 --> 00:40:35,989 Now, I say I've got no problem with it 620 00:40:35,989 --> 00:40:38,010 in the sense that I think we need 621 00:40:38,010 --> 00:40:41,050 a very, very high level of bilingual competence 622 00:40:41,050 --> 00:40:42,750 and that's for sure. 623 00:40:43,369 --> 00:40:47,110 But elite bilingualism is nothing new. 624 00:40:47,269 --> 00:40:48,210 We've had that for ages. 625 00:40:48,429 --> 00:40:50,670 The British ruling classes have been quite bilingual 626 00:40:50,670 --> 00:40:53,309 in German before the First World War 627 00:40:53,309 --> 00:40:54,469 and since then in French. 628 00:40:54,969 --> 00:40:57,530 The Russians used to be bilingual in French and so on. 629 00:40:57,789 --> 00:40:59,730 We are now, I think, engaged in something different. 630 00:40:59,730 --> 00:41:06,150 So understanding what the bilingualism is, is something I think quite important. 631 00:41:06,250 --> 00:41:09,429 I think you're probably thinking of something rather different as well. 632 00:41:10,050 --> 00:41:14,030 And that brings me really to what I wanted to say. 633 00:41:14,250 --> 00:41:19,329 I mean, not I wanted to say everything that I've said, but the key point of what I wanted to say. 634 00:41:20,130 --> 00:41:28,349 What are, that CLIL, bilingualism, immersion, whatever you want to call it, is not just about good ideas. 635 00:41:28,349 --> 00:41:30,429 it's not just about pedagogy 636 00:41:30,429 --> 00:41:33,989 it's got a policy and political significance 637 00:41:33,989 --> 00:41:37,489 I think that in developing the work that you do 638 00:41:37,489 --> 00:41:39,289 because you're at the forefront of this work 639 00:41:39,289 --> 00:41:40,849 you need at least to understand that 640 00:41:40,849 --> 00:41:44,250 to take account of political constraints and realities 641 00:41:44,250 --> 00:41:45,670 not least financial ones 642 00:41:45,670 --> 00:41:49,210 and also be clear about what you want and what you mean 643 00:41:49,210 --> 00:41:52,769 positively as I've said 644 00:41:52,769 --> 00:41:55,369 CLIL, bilingualism is trendy 645 00:41:55,369 --> 00:41:57,909 and at the European level at least 646 00:41:57,909 --> 00:42:04,369 people say it's a good thing. But take heed from the US example. It could change. So what 647 00:42:04,369 --> 00:42:09,050 are the challenges as I see them? And you might think of others as well. Well, firstly, 648 00:42:09,309 --> 00:42:17,530 the questions of definition. Is it bilingualism for a few or for many? Or is it both of them? 649 00:42:20,420 --> 00:42:28,739 Is it bilingualism for monolinguals? Or is it bilingualism which supports existing bilingualism? 650 00:42:28,739 --> 00:42:30,599 or is it both of those 651 00:42:30,599 --> 00:42:32,780 and can they be made to work 652 00:42:32,780 --> 00:42:34,980 and support each other and help each other 653 00:42:34,980 --> 00:42:37,599 this is the good thing now 654 00:42:37,599 --> 00:42:39,019 I don't have to answer the questions 655 00:42:39,019 --> 00:42:44,380 second category of 656 00:42:44,380 --> 00:42:46,739 policy, political type questions 657 00:42:46,739 --> 00:42:47,980 what are the drivers 658 00:42:47,980 --> 00:42:50,000 now you'll know this better for Spain 659 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,320 or for Madrid than I will 660 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:54,739 I talk about my own experience 661 00:42:54,739 --> 00:42:56,500 but they are likely 662 00:42:56,500 --> 00:42:58,480 to include I guess 663 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:07,260 standards and quality and how does that impact what you have to do and how can you answer that 664 00:43:07,260 --> 00:43:14,199 question again i mentioned you know javier yesterday spoke a lot about that and i think 665 00:43:14,199 --> 00:43:20,400 that there are some important discussions to be had then politicians want simple answers and they 666 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:27,139 want things quickly so if you say well this is going to be good the next state and they're going 667 00:43:27,139 --> 00:43:35,079 to learn better, the next statement is, or the question is, when and how much? 668 00:43:35,079 --> 00:43:41,079 So that means that after four years, they will be at this level that show me and they 669 00:43:41,079 --> 00:43:46,659 want you to be able to do it. So you have to be able to also answer the question, yes, 670 00:43:46,659 --> 00:43:52,760 but not if I only have one hour a week and I haven't got any resources and I don't have 671 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:57,039 many time to think about what I'm doing. It won't happen. So that's a dialogue. 672 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,800 Competitiveness and employability, is that the driver? I think it is in many countries. 673 00:44:05,739 --> 00:44:13,480 English in particular is something that is being driven because of the view that you need English 674 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:18,280 to be employable. When we were in Armenia, one of the phrases that we heard time and time again, 675 00:44:18,900 --> 00:44:24,280 every mother knows, it's always dangerous, isn't it, what every mother knows, every mother knows 676 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:31,780 that their children need, a university education, technological skills, and English. 677 00:44:32,860 --> 00:44:34,000 That's it. That's Armenia. 678 00:44:34,860 --> 00:44:41,119 Abu Dhabi, rich little country, a comprehensive national education reform strategy, 679 00:44:41,119 --> 00:44:47,280 one of the recommendations issued recently at the Emirates Center for Strategic Studies and Research. 680 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,500 among the concerns we had heard 681 00:44:50,500 --> 00:44:53,039 was how the United Arab Emirates 682 00:44:53,039 --> 00:44:55,599 could reform its current educational programs 683 00:44:55,599 --> 00:44:57,460 so that we are able to keep up 684 00:44:57,460 --> 00:44:59,780 with the global scientific and research community 685 00:44:59,780 --> 00:45:03,159 and what are the skills we must import on our pupils 686 00:45:03,159 --> 00:45:06,260 so they can compete with international peers. 687 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,920 An essential element of that was English. 688 00:45:13,449 --> 00:45:16,190 Or are the drivers social cohesion? 689 00:45:16,670 --> 00:45:18,389 How do we articulate that argument? 690 00:45:18,389 --> 00:45:21,429 so that the policy makers will see 691 00:45:21,429 --> 00:45:24,010 that we are not talking about something soft 692 00:45:24,010 --> 00:45:25,090 but something vital 693 00:45:25,090 --> 00:45:29,110 in terms of the citizens that we are making for the future. 694 00:45:33,409 --> 00:45:34,650 Are there other drivers 695 00:45:34,650 --> 00:45:38,710 which drive policy in terms of education? 696 00:45:39,349 --> 00:45:39,750 It could be. 697 00:45:39,829 --> 00:45:40,710 Actually, I heard one yesterday. 698 00:45:40,829 --> 00:45:44,090 It could be. 699 00:45:44,210 --> 00:45:45,789 An example given there was 700 00:45:45,789 --> 00:45:47,809 the school wants to stop from closing. 701 00:45:48,650 --> 00:45:49,409 That's a driver. 702 00:45:49,409 --> 00:45:51,170 or from declining 703 00:45:51,170 --> 00:45:53,369 and so let's do something new 704 00:45:53,369 --> 00:45:54,750 and let's build something. 705 00:45:54,969 --> 00:45:55,690 That's politics. 706 00:45:56,389 --> 00:45:57,969 Say you're a politician, you didn't know it. 707 00:45:59,969 --> 00:46:01,769 And what are the systems you have to cope with? 708 00:46:02,090 --> 00:46:05,349 We have a very heavy assessment regime in the UK 709 00:46:05,349 --> 00:46:08,710 so the first question people ask about bilingual programmes 710 00:46:08,710 --> 00:46:11,170 is yes, but will it affect their geography? 711 00:46:12,150 --> 00:46:14,250 Will they make progress in the other subjects? 712 00:46:14,710 --> 00:46:16,289 And actually you have to answer that question 713 00:46:16,289 --> 00:46:18,030 because we're not doing CLIL 714 00:46:18,030 --> 00:46:20,489 so that their languages get good. 715 00:46:20,789 --> 00:46:23,389 It's for their acquiring new learning. 716 00:46:24,449 --> 00:46:25,550 And what about teacher training? 717 00:46:25,750 --> 00:46:27,150 The big question for everybody. 718 00:46:27,329 --> 00:46:29,610 How are we going to cope with those issues of teacher training? 719 00:46:30,610 --> 00:46:31,590 And the curriculum. 720 00:46:31,789 --> 00:46:33,190 How is the curriculum set up? 721 00:46:34,349 --> 00:46:41,389 Very much an issue for particular countries 722 00:46:41,389 --> 00:46:48,559 because of particular frameworks and resources in general. 723 00:46:49,599 --> 00:46:59,320 And ideology. What are the ideologies that matter if you're thinking of developing and interfacing with politics? 724 00:46:59,659 --> 00:47:01,420 Well, one of them is to do with the national language. 725 00:47:01,739 --> 00:47:08,519 In Armenia, to quote that example again, it is law that you can only teach in Armenian. 726 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:14,059 Now, they get around that. They teach in Russian, they teach in English, and they teach in French, but they shouldn't. 727 00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:16,280 So that can be an issue. 728 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:19,079 the same point was highlighted 729 00:47:19,079 --> 00:47:21,139 in the Arab Emirate that I mentioned 730 00:47:21,139 --> 00:47:22,760 one point was highlighted 731 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:24,440 was the need to make sure 732 00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:26,400 that a dedicated bilingual curriculum 733 00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:27,059 was developed 734 00:47:27,059 --> 00:47:29,559 so that while pupils learn English 735 00:47:29,559 --> 00:47:31,619 it is not at the expense of their mother tongue 736 00:47:31,619 --> 00:47:34,320 and I think related to that 737 00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:35,719 is the general role of English 738 00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:37,519 and is English going to become 739 00:47:37,519 --> 00:47:38,360 something different 740 00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:39,840 from other foreign languages 741 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:43,159 I leave them as questions 742 00:47:43,159 --> 00:47:44,360 because time is running out 743 00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,199 and also 744 00:47:47,199 --> 00:47:48,500 educational beliefs 745 00:47:48,500 --> 00:47:51,280 our minister currently 746 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:52,340 is obsessed with grammar 747 00:47:52,340 --> 00:47:55,320 that will be a question 748 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,360 that he wants to know, yes, when will they learn 749 00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:58,440 the blue perfect tense 750 00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:00,400 he asked that question 751 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,179 well we could laugh at that 752 00:48:03,179 --> 00:48:05,119 answer but it doesn't really help much laughing 753 00:48:05,119 --> 00:48:07,300 at ministers because they don't actually 754 00:48:07,300 --> 00:48:08,920 make the good decisions then 755 00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:10,980 so what's your answer 756 00:48:10,980 --> 00:48:12,940 your minister might have the same view 757 00:48:12,940 --> 00:48:15,800 and how does that relate to what you want to do? 758 00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:17,840 You have to think about it. 759 00:48:18,119 --> 00:48:20,960 So to go to a sort of conclusion, 760 00:48:22,980 --> 00:48:25,360 I came here just to share some reflections, 761 00:48:25,599 --> 00:48:29,219 to ask you some questions really from politics land. 762 00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,679 It might help you think more about this exciting approach to learning. 763 00:48:33,300 --> 00:48:34,239 I don't have answers. 764 00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:35,699 Well, I've got a few, I think, 765 00:48:35,780 --> 00:48:38,579 but I think you need to think of answers as well. 766 00:48:39,639 --> 00:48:41,739 I'm sure that you need to think about those questions 767 00:48:41,739 --> 00:48:43,559 because it's not just or even 768 00:48:43,559 --> 00:48:45,579 perhaps mainly for the politicians 769 00:48:45,579 --> 00:48:47,179 and I'm going to mention your talk again 770 00:48:47,179 --> 00:48:50,599 just the realities of how you do things 771 00:48:50,599 --> 00:48:52,619 and how you make change happen 772 00:48:52,619 --> 00:48:54,579 because it happens at the level of a school 773 00:48:54,579 --> 00:48:55,820 and an autonomia 774 00:48:55,820 --> 00:48:58,360 and a region and a country as well 775 00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:00,000 I hope 776 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,480 I've at least given you an insight 777 00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:04,920 or lifted the curtain about how policy happens 778 00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:06,559 what it can and can't do 779 00:49:06,559 --> 00:49:08,219 and how they can help or hinder 780 00:49:08,219 --> 00:49:09,719 what you're trying to do 781 00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:12,199 because another point as well which I think 782 00:49:12,199 --> 00:49:14,380 Clavier was trying to make, I'll just say it 783 00:49:14,380 --> 00:49:16,480 in an image, one can get carried away 784 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,440 with things as well, and over enthusiastic 785 00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:20,519 and over promise, in that sense 786 00:49:20,519 --> 00:49:22,400 it can be just as dangerous to jump 787 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:24,480 onto a bandwagon as to stand in front 788 00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:26,739 of a bus, it comes with the same result 789 00:49:26,739 --> 00:49:28,500 so, but as a kind 790 00:49:28,500 --> 00:49:30,579 of conclusion, I think 791 00:49:30,579 --> 00:49:32,539 we can be positive, we know that 792 00:49:32,539 --> 00:49:34,559 it works, the evaluations 793 00:49:34,559 --> 00:49:36,420 of what you're doing have been in 794 00:49:36,420 --> 00:49:37,679 Spain have been very positive 795 00:49:37,679 --> 00:49:42,840 My experience is that headteachers, even in the UK, are very interested in this idea. 796 00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:47,880 And I'll leave you with a view, I called it a view from the south and north, 797 00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:56,159 because it was based on a review of the Australian policy carried out by Joe Labianco, 798 00:49:56,159 --> 00:50:03,599 but also informed by Richard Johnston from Scotland, 799 00:50:03,599 --> 00:50:08,059 who had reviewed some of your bilingual work here. 800 00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:12,000 And the conclusion that Joe Lubyanko draws 801 00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:14,440 is that if we are really going to make any sense 802 00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:19,619 of language in the 21st century, 803 00:50:19,739 --> 00:50:21,420 language learning in the 21st century, 804 00:50:21,420 --> 00:50:22,980 there are two things that we need to do. 805 00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:26,000 One, build on the linguistic capital of immigrants 806 00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:28,659 because we have a gold mine of language 807 00:50:28,659 --> 00:50:31,139 which at the moment is not brought into the school. 808 00:50:31,139 --> 00:50:35,519 and the second, develop intensive or CLIL-type approaches 809 00:50:35,519 --> 00:50:39,340 for the monolinguals as well. 810 00:50:39,340 --> 00:50:44,039 Because conventional language learning doesn't really work 811 00:50:44,039 --> 00:50:47,519 despite all of the investment that has been put into it. 812 00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:52,179 And that was Richard's explanation of that, 813 00:50:52,699 --> 00:50:54,599 referencing to Spain, 814 00:50:59,739 --> 00:51:01,760 he calls it breathtaking in its scope 815 00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:03,440 and its speed of implementation. 816 00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:06,219 so I think what we are doing 817 00:51:06,219 --> 00:51:07,739 what you're doing is something 818 00:51:07,739 --> 00:51:10,159 very exciting, very 819 00:51:10,159 --> 00:51:12,219 important for the development of 820 00:51:12,219 --> 00:51:14,300 Europe as well as Spain 821 00:51:14,300 --> 00:51:16,119 maybe 822 00:51:16,119 --> 00:51:17,840 what I've said can help you 823 00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:19,900 manage it better 824 00:51:19,900 --> 00:51:21,760 not do it better, that's up to you 825 00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:24,300 and I've got my last picture 826 00:51:24,300 --> 00:51:25,460 that I found on Google 827 00:51:25,460 --> 00:51:28,280 which sort of represents what we're trying 828 00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:28,699 to do 829 00:51:28,699 --> 00:51:34,059 Thank you very much 830 00:51:34,059 --> 00:51:45,440 We have five minutes. I remind you that there are two simultaneous panels next to each other, while the questions are coming up. 831 00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:53,340 One is about the media, where the media, the country, the world, the school and the magisterium will be present. 832 00:51:53,340 --> 00:51:56,039 y otro panel simultáneo en el Salón de Grados, 833 00:51:56,900 --> 00:52:01,360 donde estarán representantes de diversas embajadas presentes en España, 834 00:52:01,679 --> 00:52:06,880 Estados Unidos, Reino Unido, Irlanda, Francia, Italia y Portugal. 835 00:52:08,420 --> 00:52:23,699 Well, there are some questions. 836 00:52:24,019 --> 00:52:27,099 I'll ask you the first one, which says, 837 00:52:28,139 --> 00:52:33,079 as you are familiar with policies in many countries, 838 00:52:33,079 --> 00:52:40,500 Do you see a raising interest in promoting bilingualism in other languages such as German, Spanish, or Chinese? 839 00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:47,360 Don't you think we should have a more open perspective in this respect? 840 00:52:48,559 --> 00:52:49,719 I think that's very interesting. 841 00:52:49,900 --> 00:52:53,219 And I think, I mean, Do Coyle, for example, might know better than I do. 842 00:52:53,880 --> 00:53:02,239 My impression is that a lot of the bilingual work of the kind that you're mainly discussing here is with English. 843 00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:03,699 obviously not in England 844 00:53:03,699 --> 00:53:05,880 but it's not entirely 845 00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:07,920 there are some very good examples of German 846 00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:10,320 I think working with German 847 00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:11,300 French 848 00:53:11,300 --> 00:53:12,300 also 849 00:53:12,300 --> 00:53:16,099 some of that as I said is in the 850 00:53:16,099 --> 00:53:18,179 more elite spectrum 851 00:53:18,179 --> 00:53:20,340 and I think it will be quite interesting to see 852 00:53:20,340 --> 00:53:21,579 whether in Europe 853 00:53:21,579 --> 00:53:24,380 the differentiation between languages 854 00:53:24,380 --> 00:53:26,199 and how we manage that 855 00:53:26,199 --> 00:53:28,739 because some people 856 00:53:28,739 --> 00:53:30,380 you mentioned the 857 00:53:30,380 --> 00:53:33,679 comité stratégique 858 00:53:33,679 --> 00:53:35,380 well I'm not allowed to say what happens there 859 00:53:35,380 --> 00:53:37,619 but you could imagine that there are some French 860 00:53:37,619 --> 00:53:39,380 academics who are still very concerned 861 00:53:39,380 --> 00:53:40,300 about English 862 00:53:40,300 --> 00:53:43,679 I think in Spain you've kind of relaxed 863 00:53:43,679 --> 00:53:45,800 about it, I don't get the same 864 00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:46,460 sense of it 865 00:53:46,460 --> 00:53:49,519 what I say to people 866 00:53:49,519 --> 00:53:51,219 like that is you need to find a way 867 00:53:51,219 --> 00:53:52,659 and what we say in our book actually 868 00:53:52,659 --> 00:53:55,719 you need to find a way to make English your friend 869 00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:57,440 that English 870 00:53:57,440 --> 00:53:59,500 can actually help multilingualism 871 00:53:59,500 --> 00:54:03,480 and more bilingualism, it doesn't have to be an obstacle to it. 872 00:54:04,820 --> 00:54:07,320 But what the result of that is going to be 873 00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:10,940 is some quite differentiated levels of language learning 874 00:54:10,940 --> 00:54:12,860 for different purposes and different people. 875 00:54:13,619 --> 00:54:15,280 Sorry, I went off the point slightly. 876 00:54:17,079 --> 00:54:18,019 Thank you very much. 877 00:54:18,659 --> 00:54:19,539 Another question. 878 00:54:19,699 --> 00:54:23,780 In the EU context, do you think that current statements 879 00:54:23,780 --> 00:54:26,780 by ministers about foreign language teaching at primary level 880 00:54:26,780 --> 00:54:32,440 Can in any way make up for the fact that languages become optional post-GCSE? 881 00:54:32,780 --> 00:54:36,559 If you ask children if they wanted to study maths at the age of 14, 882 00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:40,119 half of them would say no, or maybe more than half of them would say no. 883 00:54:40,739 --> 00:54:43,059 So I'm not a great supporter of optionality, 884 00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:46,840 but that's part of the politics, the political landscape in England. 885 00:54:47,739 --> 00:54:53,260 Choice is the word, and the smallest possible compulsory curriculum. 886 00:54:53,539 --> 00:54:56,599 So, no, I didn't agree with that. 887 00:54:56,780 --> 00:55:15,239 What we see, on the other hand, what we do have to realize, and maybe that's the case here as well, I think it's the case in many countries, that many pupils of 14, 15, and 16 learn languages badly and don't like learning languages. 888 00:55:16,119 --> 00:55:23,159 And that was what was happening, and head teachers were saying that, and teachers were saying that, and they said, we don't want these children who don't want to learn. 889 00:55:23,159 --> 00:55:30,559 so it was more tricky than it seemed I still didn't agree with it I don't think that earlier 890 00:55:30,559 --> 00:55:37,059 start will compensate what I think is that an earlier start could change the way that people 891 00:55:37,059 --> 00:55:43,320 learn languages and change their attitude so they are more positive about it thank you some more 892 00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:50,559 questions I'd like to ask you a personal question you you've been a director of shield for 11 years 893 00:55:50,559 --> 00:55:55,539 I think, and then you've been the national champion for languages for seven years, so 894 00:55:55,539 --> 00:56:02,199 I think you're the person in the UK, or at least in England, with most experience in 895 00:56:02,199 --> 00:56:08,179 language teaching and learning. Could you tell us something about how the national languages 896 00:56:08,179 --> 00:56:13,880 strategy has been implemented, if it has been successful or not, and what's going to happen 897 00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:16,280 in the UK in the future, or in England? 898 00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:21,800 Good question. Well, I can send you the article because we've done a review of that. 899 00:56:21,900 --> 00:56:28,079 I think that the National Languages Strategy, particularly after 2007, had a very good orientation 900 00:56:28,079 --> 00:56:32,599 because it defined for the first time the shape of language learning. 901 00:56:33,460 --> 00:56:38,639 It was very successful in primary and had a very good model for introducing primary languages 902 00:56:38,639 --> 00:56:43,440 and training the teachers, it was not there. 903 00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:48,739 It had not been completed, certainly in secondary, 904 00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:50,320 so there was still business to be done. 905 00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:53,920 And the current government doesn't believe in strategies, 906 00:56:54,340 --> 00:56:56,920 so things will have to be done in another way. 907 00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:04,019 What is going to happen now is that we are reviewing the curriculum again, 908 00:57:04,019 --> 00:57:08,539 and so there is a consultation about what the curriculum, 909 00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:10,079 what should be in the curriculum 910 00:57:10,079 --> 00:57:12,420 and what the content of the curriculum should be. 911 00:57:12,980 --> 00:57:17,159 I'm very hopeful that languages will return into the curriculum. 912 00:57:17,780 --> 00:57:21,519 What I'm not so clear about is what the form of that curriculum will be. 913 00:57:21,519 --> 00:57:25,199 There will be possibilities for the kind of things we're talking about 914 00:57:25,199 --> 00:57:28,920 because the idea is to free up the curriculum 915 00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:32,519 and I know that both of the main education ministers 916 00:57:32,519 --> 00:57:34,519 are interested in bilingual schools 917 00:57:34,519 --> 00:57:36,219 but I think they're interested in 918 00:57:36,219 --> 00:57:37,980 elite bilingual schools 919 00:57:37,980 --> 00:57:40,460 rather than 920 00:57:40,460 --> 00:57:42,780 a broader CLIL approach to languages 921 00:57:42,780 --> 00:57:44,599 because they want to teach grammar 922 00:57:44,599 --> 00:57:46,099 Thank you very much