Proyecto de Nim

A chimpanzee infant left with his mother is a thing, a lump, taken away he acquires human 00:00:56

psychological tests, performances which are well not unbelievable. 00:02:00

Nim was born at the primate center in Oklahoma and I went out there to get him. 00:02:06

I had never been near that many chimpanzees, it was frightening and intimidating. 00:02:23

And I knew Dr. Lemon and his wife were watching me to see what kind of a mother would I be. 00:02:31

Carolyn, Nim's mother, was sitting right there holding Nim. 00:02:37

And she knew what was going to happen better than I did. 00:02:47

She had had six of her previous babies removed, apparently, in the same way. 00:02:50

When the time came to take Nim from his mother, she instantly took on this drama, this feeling 00:03:04

of something about to happen. 00:03:15

And Dr. Lemon shot her with a tranquilizing gun and then said, quick, we have to get him 00:03:18

before she falls over and falls on him. 00:03:32

She was trying to protect him and cradle him. 00:03:37

So he raised him and got Nym 00:03:41

and handed Nym to me 00:03:43

and said, go back, you know, go back in the other space. 00:03:48

He was very dense, 00:04:04

unlike a human baby that has fat he was dense and hard he didn't struggle he didn't try to 00:04:07

get away he just screamed as much as he may be screaming and protesting he's also clinging he 00:04:18

was attaching for dear life wouldn't it be exciting to communicate with the chimp and 00:04:27

find out what it was thinking if they could be taught to articulate what they 00:04:59

were thinking about this would be an incredible expansion of human 00:05:07

communication and possibly give us some insight into how language in fact did 00:05:12

evolve and that's essentially why I started project them I don't know what 00:05:18

was in his mind but he just called he was asking me to bring an infant 00:05:27

chimpanzee into my home raise this infant as if he were a child and see if 00:05:34

he acquire language as a function of being part of a family 00:05:43

Stephanie was a former student of mine she had a large family of her own 00:05:48

children and her husband's children was exceedingly empathic and warm and a chimp could not have 00:05:55

a better mother. 00:06:02

I know nothing about chimpanzees and I never actually sat down to study them as one could 00:06:05

have, as I should have perhaps, but my appetite and my drive to have that intimate relationship 00:06:14

with an animal was, nothing would have stopped that. 00:06:21

The fact that we could share language with an animal 00:06:25

seemed like a very radical possibility at that time. 00:06:30

It had been known for some time 00:06:35

that chimps aren't able to make the sounds of human language. 00:06:36

Do this, Sticky. 00:06:40

So why not teach them sign language? 00:06:43

The real breakthrough would be if, like human children, 00:06:48

And a chimpanzee could create grammatical sentences. 00:06:52

So without much preparation and without really asking permission of my children, my husband, 00:06:58

I said, fine, I can do it. 00:07:05

I even have the funds to do it with. 00:07:07

We don't need to worry about money. 00:07:09

And so it was launched. 00:07:12

The experiment was launched. 00:07:14

When Nim came to New York, he was barely two weeks old. 00:07:17

idea was that he would be treated in every way like a human infant i had recently moved to a 00:07:21

brownstone on the upper west side with my three children and with my husband who had four children 00:07:31

weir lafarge weir was a poet and a writer he redefined himself became what at that time was 00:07:38

called a rich hippie new husband new family new house and I brought him into 00:07:49

that rather turbulent situation it just happened there was no family discussion 00:08:03

about should we shouldn't it was just oh we're having a chimp we're going to 00:08:13

teach a sign language and then the reality of it is sort of hitting you 00:08:19

that it's really, you know, it's alive, it's not a doll, it's not a toy, it's not a human, 00:08:25

it's a chimp, and it's an amazing, sweet, little, newborn baby, needy creature. 00:08:30

So, I think I fell in love instantly. 00:08:39

Nim didn't like Weir, and Weir didn't like him. 00:08:47

Almost instantly, I saw how complicated this was going to be. 00:08:55

I think we went along with it. 00:09:00

It was clearly Stephanie sort of saying, 00:09:03

let's have a chimp. 00:09:05

It was the 70s. 00:09:08

I breastfed him for a couple of months. 00:09:12

It seemed completely natural. 00:09:15

Everything was about treating him like a human being. 00:09:19

by the time I had him of course I felt very comfortable with babies I wasn't prepared at 00:09:22

all for the wild animal in him and the drive by the time he was three months old I think 00:09:32

and and starting to be ambulatory he was just right there nothing passive nothing passive ever 00:09:46

You know, I think he figured that he could just get in between Weir and Stephanie, um, 00:09:57

on some level, and Weir put his arm around her and, and Nim just, you know, half asleep 00:10:07

having a bottle, you know, turn and bit Weir on the arm quite hard. 00:10:19

He didn't want Weir in the picture. 00:10:24

with Stephanie Alford, you know, himself. 00:10:29

We're definitely felt excluded. 00:10:33

Nim had just become part of my being. 00:10:37

That was incompatible with the role that I played as wife. 00:10:41

Herb's coming, Herb's coming, Herb's coming. 00:10:53

Herb's coming was a big deal. 00:10:56

I would just go over and visit, just to see what his state was and how he was getting along. 00:10:59

Herb was infinitely exciting. 00:11:08

I admired his intellect and his goals and his arrogance, all those things. 00:11:12

There was something that didn't sit right with me about him. 00:11:21

Woof! Woof! Woof! 00:11:26

The people that I am the closest to throughout my life 00:11:30

are people that I have had some period of sexual contact with. 00:11:34

I don't think that the previous sexual relationship 00:11:39

between Herb and myself made a difference to the project at all, 00:11:45

other than it was part of the glue that allowed it to happen. 00:11:50

her didn't come very much he wasn't part of the caretaking package at all young newborn chimps 00:11:56

are always raised by their mothers not by their fathers um and i didn't see any way of trying to 00:12:10

or any point in trying to change that for better or worse i had never regarded him as a child i 00:12:18

regarding him as an intelligent personable center of a scientific 00:12:28

project I had an implicit faith that Nim would learn signs we had to wait and see 00:12:33

how do they start teaching the child to sign does the child just watch and 00:12:46

whatever I don't know I mean it was a problem we were trying to teach this 00:12:52

chimp sign language and nobody in the house really was fluent in sign language 00:12:56

We would mold his hand into the sign for drink, which is this, and then give him the bottle to drink. 00:13:00

It just happened. 00:13:17

It was just amazing. 00:13:19

And I thought, piece of cake. 00:13:22

I was absolutely delighted. 00:13:26

He picked up quite a few signs after that rather quickly. 00:13:29

Eat, Me, Nim were part of his first signs. 00:13:32

Hug was another one. 00:13:39

And it was as if then, okay, we're off now. 00:13:45

We just got to build up the vocabulary. 00:13:48

As much as we were molding him, 00:13:50

we were molding these damn hands and all this stuff, 00:13:53

he was starting to mold us. 00:13:56

He knew every dynamic that was in the room instantly. 00:13:58

he knew when you were upset whatever had happened and whatever you know 13 14 year 00:14:03

old's life and he would come over and he would just come and sit with you and hug you and then 00:14:10

just kiss the tears away and you know it was amazing you know just unconditional he was my 00:14:17

lifeline he was my buddy and he was bringing something out in me a freedom 00:14:27

to defy expectation and authority his greatest focus of defiance was against 00:14:34

weir he would you know kind of pull books off the shelves and we're liked 00:14:42

his books a certain way when he saw we're coming he would really do it it 00:14:48

was very focused. It was intentional. Fuck you, I'm touching these. It was a problem. 00:14:56

Weir was so impotent. I mean, what could he do? He'd chase him around, drop that, you 00:15:07

know, blah, blah. I mean, he won every time. 00:15:13

Dim saw Herb as his next adult male challenge. I mean, that is the life that he's hardwired 00:15:25

for to take on increasingly powerful male figures until he's the top. When 00:15:33

Herb would come over expecting to step in and have control of Nim and he 00:15:40

couldn't and didn't, we loved it. We loved it. 00:15:45

I cornered Nim and just went to pull him out of some hiding place and he bit me. 00:15:49

frankly everybody in the family got a kick out of him doing just what Herb 00:16:03

hated no one ever put him in his place and he just grew more and more and more 00:16:08

more powerful and that was exciting to me we didn't have to try to control him 00:16:14

in any way in fact we enjoyed just letting him hang out and see how it went 00:16:24

Stephanie being the kind of mother she was was not very concerned about this 00:16:30

one it was sort of the hippie mentality and i think what i would tell her would go in one ear 00:16:42

and out the other herb would have wanted a schedule and a structure and charted progress 00:16:50

and notes and all of that i didn't supply that i didn't couldn't create that and i don't think nim 00:17:02

would have thrived in that I was taking classes at Columbia University and there 00:17:12

was a small sign that said research assistant needed course credit granted 00:17:30

man opened the door and he was completely breathless he also he's one 00:17:36

of those men who was balding on the top so we had his hair pasted down but he 00:17:48

He was so upset and disheveled that his hair was standing straight up on one side. 00:17:53

He explained it was a language project and I immediately understood the scientific relevance. 00:18:02

Nim was going to test the nature versus nurture hypotheses that were prevailing at the time. 00:18:11

It really was at the cusp of science. 00:18:18

Some things are just immediately obvious about someone from the beginning. 00:18:23

You know what kind of person you have. 00:18:28

I think she was 18, if I'm not mistaken. 00:18:31

At the time, Nim was in Stephanie Lafarge's house, 00:18:35

and my first job was to basically babysit, 00:18:40

to go to the house and ostensibly teach him sign language. 00:18:44

She came out of nowhere as a cute little thing from Ramapo. 00:18:48

When I got there, I was actually really surprised. 00:18:56

There was utter chaos. 00:19:00

There was nothing. This was a scientific project. 00:19:04

There were no journals. There were no logbooks. 00:19:10

They didn't know who was covering them, 00:19:13

when they were going to be covering them, 00:19:16

who would be teaching them, when they would be teaching them. 00:19:17

them they didn't know what they were going to teach him she quickly felt her power it was 00:19:20

completely visible you know everybody had to adapt to it she wanted that mother role 00:19:27

this animal climbed the walls all day he ripped apart stephanie's house all day 00:19:36

The kinds of things she was exposing them to were atypical. 00:19:46

He loved driving fast in cars. 00:19:53

He loved motorcycles. 00:19:59

He loved, you know, virtually anything thrilling. 00:20:01

He liked alcohol. 00:20:07

You'd give him a sip and he'd want more. 00:20:09

We gave him puffs on a joint. 00:20:13

We didn't have to treat him like a child. 00:20:17

We could expose him to the sensations that we enjoyed. 00:20:26

I had an instinctive sense that something was very amiss here, 00:20:33

that this is not the way you teach a child language 00:20:38

or you interact with a child or you teach anything language. 00:20:43

When Nim began to discover my body, my nakedness, 00:20:50

I mean, like a child, he was uninterested and then one day he was interested. 00:20:57

I never felt sexually engaged with him. 00:21:09

There was a sensuality, but Nim was a preteen. 00:21:13

Stephanie was a graduate student in psychoanalysis. 00:21:20

Her questions had to do with the Oedipal complex and she was interested in Nim's masturbation. 00:21:25

and how he masturbated i couldn't believe it i realized that i could not do what i call good 00:21:31

science um in stephanie's home it just wasn't conducive to that so i set up a classroom at 00:21:40

columbia he's gonna take him to school and i realize i'm starting to lose my role as the 00:21:49

person who knows the best what he needs we had to get him in a context that was neutral 00:21:58

calming soothing i just mapped out a teaching plan for them and i did it 00:22:07

she was so enthusiastic about this that i made her in a sense the director of education 00:22:20

the curriculum i was feeling good about myself also i was succeeding with them i could see i 00:22:28

was succeeding with them i can see it i can see that no one could hold a candle to me 00:22:36

the only thing that mattered to him it became more and more tense you know words words words 00:22:43

words words word order word order word order uh he couldn't he couldn't see anything else 00:22:49

herb started seeing the signs grow on that little graph every day every other day every three days 00:22:54

laura taught him another sign laura taught him another sign and i just went hell for leather 00:23:03

nymph signing was just almost exponentially increasing i was very happy 00:23:13

words are a fucking nightmare when it comes to closeness often um and here i was married to a 00:23:19

poet working for a linguist you know i was you know words were the became the enemy she started 00:23:31

restricting the times we can come in the house uh she started throwing us out she apparently 00:23:41

was uh you know encouraged to believe that she was now the mother stephanie began to threaten 00:23:51

to take nim away from her and herb started panicking i definitely initiated the move 00:23:59

out of stephanie's house i think she was initially quite resistant to it 00:24:12

uh especially since she didn't know exactly how nim was going to end up god had spoken that's 00:24:17

what that's what had happened that's what was going on and we didn't have control so 00:24:23

my separation from him was just as abrupt in a way at that moment as his was from carolyn's 00:24:37

I was ostensibly conscious, but I was no less, I was as unaware and, you know, un-in-charge and helpless as she was. 00:24:45

It was heartbreaking, saying goodbye. 00:25:03

Part of me did not want him to learn language. 00:25:22

he was less with language than he was as his unique self at that time a very lucky thing happened 00:25:25

i was aware that there was a estate that columbia owned in riverdale very large estate 00:25:57

that used to be the home of the president and i went to him with a proposition that if he allowed 00:26:06

me to raise the chimp there I would pay for the heat and said sure this was amazing this was a 00:26:14

fairy tale we got there's a 28-acre estate surrounded by lovely gardens and that allowed 00:26:34

me to put up nims teachers in magnificent surroundings and not pay any rent the wife is good 00:26:45

nim got out of the car ran up to the front door rolled down the hill and he was gone 00:26:57

he was free so there was no reaction at having taken him out of stephanie's house 00:27:07

he was fine and it was like he had been there his whole life he certainly was a 00:27:23

different chimpanzee in this mansion than he was with Stephanie so I sort of 00:27:37

got into more you know interacting with him Herb's power as a professor his age 00:27:44

completely impacted me he was my model we really clicked together I wanted so 00:27:56

much to be a part of his world I wanted to be in that world of academia I had 00:28:11

strong personal feelings about Laura but I don't think that in any way got in the 00:28:21

way of our science some of the the daily bodily requirements that Nim had had to 00:28:30

be addressed and very quickly I eventually couldn't handle the diapers 00:28:47

anymore he was getting bigger and he was eating more of our food so pragmatically 00:28:55

I had to get him off those diapers I watched his facial expressions when he 00:29:00

needed the potty and I began to see it and grab him and bring him to the potty. 00:29:07

He did actually did use the toilet correctly but it was certainly not as 00:29:14

reliable as what you'd see in a child. The idea was that I would live with Nim 00:29:20

and I would train him for a certain period of time in the house but then I 00:29:31

And I would bring him in every day to Columbia University. 00:29:37

This was an experiment to teach or see if a chimpanzee can learn sign language. 00:29:44

I just thought it was really interesting, intellectually interesting. 00:29:52

Interesting to understand how much chimpanzees are like us and how much they're not. 00:29:56

At that time he was terribly cute, you know, getting little photos in New York Magazine. 00:30:00

There was a daily lesson plan, if you will, where we were supposed to teach these particular 00:30:10

signs to Nim, and they were supposed to also teach him everyday activities. 00:30:14

Dress yourself, undress yourself, this sort of thing. 00:30:22

Like children, after they learn a few words, Nim has spontaneously put signs together. 00:30:27

In many instances, we allow Nim to use his own signs that he almost invents, so long 00:30:33

as they're consistent for example this is the sign for play that he invented 00:30:39

he's learning signs rapidly they're going up up up up up the project was 00:30:45

literally humming everything was going very smoothly I have a chimpanzee who was 00:30:50

making history we did get a grant somewhere in that time the project had 00:30:57

begun to enter the media so there was all this excitement and hype about the 00:31:03

project we were thrilled we've probably all seen performing chimpanzees on television or in 00:31:08

circuses but nim is no ordinary chimp since he was a few weeks old nim has lived in a close 00:31:19

association with a group of scientists under the direction of dr herbert terrace of columbia 00:31:26

university they're performing a unique experiment to try to determine whether apes can be taught to 00:31:31

communicate with humans using language how big will he be when he's full grown 00:31:37

oh he's gonna be big he's gonna be about five feet tall perhaps 150 pounds and 00:31:43

supposedly five to six times the strength of men how are you going to be 00:31:49

able to handle him then he had grown I guess he was probably something like 00:31:54

that and he you know if you had to hold him you really had to hold him on his 00:32:00

He's gone from being this meek little huggable toy to quite a robust young chimpanzee. 00:32:07

His eye teeth were never taken out, which means that he's got fangs, essentially, sitting here. 00:32:19

Extremely strong jaw. 00:32:25

If you didn't assert dominance in some fashion, you were going to be in trouble eventually. 00:32:27

He could size somebody up in two seconds. 00:32:35

whether they were confident or secretly unconfident. 00:32:37

If I stood up too quickly, 00:32:44

if I accidentally showed him my back too quickly, 00:32:46

if I had food and I didn't think to share it with him, 00:32:51

he'd cross that threshold and go into attack. 00:32:55

You could tell that he was getting an attitude. 00:33:00

The hair would go up on his arms, 00:33:03

and you sort of get this look in his face. 00:33:06

When he would bark, I'd feel it inside, the danger. 00:33:09

He had to lunge, the contact, the rip, the tear, and the release. 00:33:18

And he had to draw blood. 00:33:25

She did not tell me that in an alarming manner. 00:33:30

She was just reporting it. 00:33:34

Maybe I was just too looking ahead with blinkers, not wanting to hear that. 00:33:36

This is 37 stitches. 00:33:42

I had four here, nine here. 00:33:45

This one sent me into the hospital. 00:33:49

This one actually was the most dangerous one 00:33:52

because he hit a tendon. 00:33:53

It's a lot of work to take care of an animal 00:34:08

that's not your species who has that kind of energy level. 00:34:12

I probably didn't know the difference 00:34:15

between chimpanzees and monkeys, 00:34:16

so I was as blind and as ignorant and as naive as probably they came I was on a 00:34:18

quick learning curve I have high energy and enthusiasm for a 00:34:24

goal and he was my goal apparently Joyce was a great teacher she signed she was 00:34:31

completely dedicated and motivated she wanted to do this this was fantastic he 00:34:39

He bit me really hard, and I bit him on the ear right then and there. 00:34:49

And I said, that's over, you will never bite me again, and he never did. 00:34:53

He did like a lot of human body contact. 00:35:00

Typically when we would leave the property, he would be really attached to you. 00:35:06

The world would scare him, so he would always come close. 00:35:12

Bill and I hung tight with him. 00:35:22

sort of hit it off and a lot of our different thinking she and I got 00:35:26

together as a couple it helped that we liked each other and I think that that 00:35:31

helped Nim's life because we enjoyed each other's company so we would do 00:35:38

things together and we would hang out as kind of a unit 00:35:44

oh he was really really tender with the cat and he'd hold it and he just sort 00:35:48

like to feel the touch something about it he'd like would hold her and be like 00:36:00

and you could see him like shaking because he'd be like so excited that he 00:36:07

had actually like kind of pushed her and then curled around her and just like lay 00:36:11

it there like I'm in heaven I would say that it was fairly clear that there was 00:36:18

something more going on than the project at least from his side and I think we 00:36:39

all felt it and we kind of had I don't want to say resentment but it's like 00:36:46

she's what he sort of stopped this Laura thing if someone showed me some 00:36:51

attention I thought it meant that they cared for me he had power I'm sure that 00:36:57

you know unconsciously I took advantage of that somebody admires you why not so 00:37:10

yeah we very briefly got involved and he very very briefly and abruptly got out 00:37:21

of it the entanglement completely affected my decision to leave it's the 00:37:28

humans i wanted to leave not the chimp herb didn't want it to happen he went into a very enthusiastic 00:37:37

mode of trying to convince me not to go i wasn't panicked i wasn't panicked that the project is 00:37:48

just gonna grind to a halt because laura left as i recall joyce and bill pretty much took care of 00:37:54

that so I didn't lose any crucial aspect of the project I started to go to get 00:38:02

the boxes to leave and Nim pulled loose from the person's hand he climbs to the 00:38:16

second floor of the house then he must have lunged 25 feet he landed on me he 00:38:24

took my head and he started pounding it into the pavement it took four males to 00:38:36

get him off me he wasn't my child he wasn't my baby you can't give human 00:38:47

nurturing to an animal that could kill you one of the easy parts of the project 00:39:06

was to advertise for teachers. 00:39:24

I was like, oh, this is nice. 00:39:27

I didn't set out to have women on the project predominantly, 00:39:31

but it certainly turned out that way. 00:39:35

And, you know, if that's the way it turned out, 00:39:37

that's the way it turned out. 00:39:40

I was a trained interpreter for the deaf. 00:39:41

When I set my mind to something, I get what I want. 00:39:44

I kept saying, I want to live here. 00:39:49

When am I moving in? 00:39:50

When do I get to move in? 00:39:51

to move in and I would annoy her and finally he let me move in probably as 00:39:52

time went on it may become more difficult for women to work with him 00:39:59

he was gonna take advantage of the man he was big enough and strong enough that 00:40:06

he could I mean it hurt his bites hurt you felt when he bit your hand he got 00:40:10

the nerve and you'd get a running shock up your arm we had epic battles though but we made up 00:40:17

he'd make that face and sign sorry it's oh well if i sign this you'll forgive me 00:40:26

i had a relationship with a chimpanzee and i had conversations with another species 00:40:34

it's not just him signing that was important to me it was what he was thinking and experiencing 00:40:40

because we would talk when we would hang out. 00:40:50

You know, we would talk about the things we would see, 00:40:53

the things we would hear. 00:40:55

As far as I'm concerned, our classroom was the house 00:40:58

and the yard and the field trips that we would take. 00:41:01

Science is a very objective enterprise. 00:41:13

You can't have personal anecdotes 00:41:17

of how I worked with Nim up at Delafield 00:41:19

as opposed to the classroom. 00:41:21

That's just of no interest to a scientist. 00:41:24

Joyce did not see anything special about the classroom. 00:41:28

Hated it. Hated it, hated it. He hated it. We hated it. 00:41:32

That's not surprising, because she didn't get the results in the classroom that I was hoping for. 00:41:35

Dick, do you know what time it is? 00:41:43

Yeah. 00:41:44

Going into a dungeon of a classroom, which it really was, 00:41:45

I mean, the thing was 15 feet square, including the observation booth and everything else. 00:41:48

No windows, no place really to have any activity. 00:41:53

Trying to get Nim's attention was a bit of a struggle. 00:41:56

And he would have rather been doing something else. 00:41:59

Pay attention to me. 00:42:03

Shh. 00:42:11

So this is a sign for dirty. 00:42:15

So we used it for toilet for him because it's a contact sign. 00:42:17

He would jump through the signs that I asked him to jump through 00:42:24

and then he would have had enough and he would say, 00:42:27

I need to go to the bathroom and that's when I knew you little booger you use 00:42:29

that sign because you knew it would make us leave there and get us out of there 00:42:44

he was growing smarter and smarter and smarter in the sense of recognizing 00:42:49

situations that he could take advantage of when he can get what he wanted 00:43:00

he's starting to discover himself there was a big rock in the front yard and he 00:43:05

used to like to pump it gonna hurt yourself that's a rock like look at 00:43:21

himself as this whole thing with the physicality became you know an issue is 00:43:27

much more cautious I think about letting the cats around around him letting play 00:43:34

with play with the cats he would even try to not engage directly in sexual relationships 00:43:38

with the animals but definitely to bring them to him and to his penis area 00:43:47

and i just said no that's not what they're there for 00:43:58

we realized i think all of us that it was becoming increasingly difficult to pursue the experiment 00:44:09

Nim was scratching hard, he was biting harder, biting more often, biting more people. 00:44:15

We hadn't mentioned the growing concern that we had about how to deal with Nim. 00:44:22

Dr. Terrace was pretty much an absentee landlord. 00:44:29

Herb was never alone with Nim, and Herb never had to spend any kind of time with him. 00:44:34

once in a while you know photo shoots for him to either take photos or for him to have photos 00:44:39

taken of him yes there were occasional bites uh i imagine they increased in frequency just 00:44:46

because nim is getting older in that sense he was becoming more chimp like but it didn't seem 00:44:56

to be a cause for alarm at that point it was the end of july it was july 28th and bill had him 00:45:04

and we did the body-to-body transfer. 00:45:14

I mean, you're holding them, and the other person comes up, 00:45:20

and you just kind of hand the chimp to the other person. 00:45:24

And I said, come on. 00:45:28

And I got the tether. 00:45:29

You know, you've got the loop first, and I then tied it to my belt. 00:45:32

Come here. 00:45:37

And he came over, and he put his arms around me. 00:45:38

He just crunched my face. 00:45:41

It just happened. 00:45:46

And I grabbed Nim and just dragged him into the house. 00:45:50

And he was like, ooh, sorry, sorry, sorry, no, no, no, no. 00:45:53

And I passed that armoire with that mirror 00:45:56

and I saw all this blood. 00:45:59

He bit through my cheek almost to the inside of my mouth. 00:46:00

It was folded over so you could see inside my face. 00:46:05

Recall she went to the emergency room, 00:46:14

but I think that something like that happened. 00:46:16

It was just, it was just bad. 00:46:21

I was probably worried that she would sue me, 00:46:26

or this would become a public, 00:46:29

this would become public knowledge 00:46:33

about how life-threatening the project might be. 00:46:34

They couldn't sew it because of the infection 00:46:40

and the risk of infection. 00:46:43

So I had an open, gaping wound on my face for three months. 00:46:44

When I got out of the hospital, I said, you know, I want to see Nim. 00:46:49

He went, ooh, and he went to reach for my face again. 00:47:03

I went, well, that's it. I don't need closure now. I'm out of here. 00:47:06

I was scared. 00:47:10

I'm tenacious, and I didn't want to let go. 00:47:14

Sort of like breaking up with a bad boyfriend. 00:47:17

I was sorry that it came to that, 00:47:20

but you just don't know how Nim is going to change, 00:47:29

and you just can't count on having outstanding teachers all the time. 00:47:32

I felt I was spreading myself too thinly 00:47:38

and experiencing too much stress 00:47:50

and not enough, you know, good results. 00:47:53

Nobody keeps a chimp for more than five years 00:48:00

because at five years they don't know their own strength 00:48:03

and they can do a lot of damage to people. 00:48:08

he called us together and dropped the bomb and said it's over i was one very angry young woman 00:48:09

you don't say we're not doing this anymore and because herb had that card to play he played it 00:48:26

because he was in the power seat i think i said there's no point of this going on scientifically 00:48:40

I felt that NIM had progressed a lot, and we hadn't had a chance to really analyze our data. 00:48:51

I just knew that we had reams of data. 00:49:01

This whole mass of data that needed to be organized, and that was going to be a long and tedious process. 00:49:05

The fundamental question was, can a chimpanzee create a sentence? 00:49:15

I don't think I had any definitive conclusions to that. 00:49:21

we had to wait and see it's kind of like you know you get you're almost there and 00:49:24

you feel like there's gonna be a conclusion and it's like okay it's over 00:49:33

I thought that the surroundings in which he was born would provide the most 00:49:41

psychological support from them I felt the basic needs would be taken 00:49:52

care of. Once I got the women to agree to take him back that was it. I hope he'll be okay. That's why I want to go with him. I hope that I'll be able to introduce him to his new life but still have an old part of his life with him namely me and he can get used to it and I can fade out and he'll be fine. It won't just be an abrupt break between old and new. 00:49:58

and we're getting him up early one morning 00:50:42

he gets a shot and he's out i chartered a plane and hired a pilot 00:51:05

and tranquilizers to reduce the possibility of his getting out of hand 00:51:20

if he was tranquilized he'd be easy to control and not do any damage to the plane which could 00:51:36

be quite dangerous. So that's how we get him to Oklahoma. It was just a nasty thing to 00:51:47

do. Very deceitful. The question is what was going to happen in Oklahoma. And I didn't 00:51:57

have any sense of that. So that was my concern. Holy shit. That's my first thought. 00:52:10

And I think his reaction was, holy shit, too. 00:52:47

Like he knew we were, he knew it was bad. 00:52:54

And he'd never seen a chimp before. 00:53:00

And he was holding on tight. 00:53:03

You look around and see cages, and you hear the sounds of a lot of chimpanzees. 00:53:11

Would I have envisioned this when I started this project, that he ever would end up there? 00:53:17

No. 00:53:22

it turned out to be a surprisingly more primitive facility than i remembered because our cages were 00:53:22

cages they weren't just a room with a locked door they were cages i mean it looked like a prison 00:53:37

really stark ugly dark dank prison 00:53:43

they had a chain around their neck with a lock 00:53:48

should you get into a bad fight you could grab the chain and keep them off of you 00:53:54

it was like prison behavior we had to put up an electric fence around the island because we had 00:54:02

had several murders and two suicides they just pushed them out into the water the chips can't 00:54:07

swim dr lemon ran the place i had an immediate horrible reaction he walked around with a cattle 00:54:15

rod i remember trying to push him away because i knew what he was going to do 00:54:23

and he was screaming and holding on to me very tightly and the only reason he like oh 00:54:32

that's because he got zapped with the electric prop 00:54:40

okay come here come here come here come here the reasoning behind the whole mac 00:54:49

nym interaction was that mac was not dangerous 00:54:57

he was small so he was not an aggressive dominant chimp so he was the perfect one for nym to start 00:55:04

with hey Mac how did you expect him to react to his first meeting with another 00:55:12

chick I think what happened was that Nim was very apprehensive about Mac and he 00:56:11

took his time and then when he was ready you know he and Mac got it off I feel 00:56:16

very good about this because i can leave now knowing that um him has a friend uh and he's 00:56:24

going to worry less about his human companions and have you know at least one other chimp to turn to 00:56:30

it was time to leave and that's when i took him and put him in the cage 00:56:35

sure i didn't want joyce doing it so i just said well i'm gonna go do it i didn't want 00:56:50

terrorist doing it. So I just decided I was gonna do it. You know we coaxed him down there and then 00:56:59

because he trusted us. I just let him in there and took the lead and tied it around the far end 00:57:15

of the cage and said goodbye and walked out and shut the door. He was sort of hooting and trying 00:57:23

to come after me um because he didn't really know where he was but um i just just walked away 00:57:43

and that way it wasn't like any right i did feel badly i felt in a certain basic sense that was 00:57:50

not the right thing to do because somebody you know had been part of my life for so many years 00:58:20

and that i was definitely doing something that he somehow would feel was unjust or wrong 00:58:25

He had a little doll or something that I think I left. 00:58:33

I strongly believe that we made a commitment to him, and we failed. 00:58:43

We did a huge disservice to that soul, and shame on us. 00:58:57

Assumed, I guess wrongly, that Nim was going to come back 00:59:14

and he was going to be celebrated in the sense that he was going to be the great signing chimp. 00:59:18

no exactly the opposite exactly the opposite 00:59:21

nim in the cage no special treatment no yogurt no granola no none of that it's pretty traumatic 00:59:27

for the chimp they curl up and lay down they lose interest in food they're just 00:59:38

it was a bad start with Nim and I 00:59:52

the chimp is very upset 00:59:58

and he just looks at me 01:00:00

and he jumps and lunches me 01:00:02

and bites through an artery 01:00:04

right in here 01:00:06

I did use a small shock stick 01:00:07

he had to grow up 01:00:10

and not be a single 01:00:15

spoiled child anymore 01:00:17

so you gotta socialize 01:00:19

work on his chimpanzee 01:00:23

and manners 01:00:26

everybody needs a job 01:00:27

meaning and purpose 01:00:38

had them out 01:00:40

they would help me in the big kitchen 01:00:46

where we prepped our food and did stuff 01:00:48

they'd sweep 01:00:50

Nim was the impulsive hand washer 01:00:51

he'd do dishes 01:00:54

Vanessa liked to dust 01:00:56

little Mac liked to clean cages 01:00:59

and wear my boots 01:01:03

this was a special group of chimps you know they weren't ordinary chimps 01:01:04

you know they had the capacity for higher consciousness 01:01:13

terrence came back a year later 01:01:16

herb arrived and with still photographers and cameras and that sort of thing 01:01:42

it was a shoot and it was arranged as such there's no question that he was 01:01:49

very happy that he could see me again there was no anger that why did you 01:01:58

leave me here it was just hey that's great I'm gonna see him again you could 01:02:04

see that he was like holy shit I'm go back to New York it was like that like 01:02:11

he was going to be rescued it was kind of sad i played with him we got into games of signing 01:02:16

i remember i got him to sign hug i got him to sign herb in fact i can get almost any sign out 01:02:28

of him i didn't have to go through a drill so it was a very entertaining comfortable afternoon 01:02:35

and no bad behavior of any kind. 01:02:42

At the end of the day, looks at his watch, 01:02:45

gets me, Nim back, and flies off. 01:02:48

And is gone. 01:02:53

Next morning, he barely ate. 01:02:56

He just started to crater. 01:02:59

Herb never came back. 01:03:05

I thought, I'm going to become Nim's friend, 01:03:10

and I'm going to hang with Nim, and we'll see what happens. 01:03:12

I mean, there wasn't much I could do for him in terms of the cage, but get him out. 01:03:16

We just liked each other right off, and sometimes it's like that. 01:03:34

Chimps aren't hymns. 01:03:54

You have to kind of understand chimps to be able to understand how to work with them and be with them. 01:03:57

I took him out on walks. 01:04:05

I didn't bring food. 01:04:10

I didn't do the kind of things that would interrupt the relationship or the building of the relationship. 01:04:11

He, you know, he grows on you quick. 01:04:23

He was so charming. 01:04:27

I mean, it didn't occur to me that animals had that kind of personality like ours. 01:04:28

And you had to be two of heart. 01:04:35

You had to be two of heart. 01:04:38

If you had dark places in you, they'd know it. 01:04:40

They wouldn't like you. 01:04:43

Good morning. With us this morning is Dr. Herbert Terrace, a professor of psychology at Columbia University. 01:04:45

For several years, Dr. Terrace was in charge of an experiment where he and several other human beings tried to teach a chimpanzee named NIM, the sign language of the deaf. 01:05:09

But now in a book just published, which is called NIM, you're saying, Dr. Terrace, that these experiments don't prove as much as you had originally thought they did? 01:05:20

I changed my mind about the data I suddenly saw what the key to this was 01:05:28

Nim was a brilliant beggar he learned how to beg and he could work as teachers 01:05:43

and always get what he wanted by moving his hands in different ways and most of 01:05:52

the time he moved his hands in the ways that the teacher suggested and the 01:05:58

motive of signing was not to say what a nice cat you have over there but I want 01:06:03

it when the experiments were over you returned him to the primate colony where 01:06:10

he was born and a year after that you went back for a visit and we came along 01:06:16

with a camera you wouldn't hear talking in sign language here right and here we 01:06:19

have it in slow motion what's NIMH saying he's saying give them banana why 01:06:25

is it that you're saying that he can't speak like a human being well a string 01:06:33

of signs is not necessarily a sentence you can learn a list of words by rote 01:06:38

and that says nothing about your ability to use a grammar aren't you very 01:06:44

disappointed that you spent all this time and all this money well it would 01:06:49

have been very electrifying news almost like communicating with a creature from 01:06:52

outer space if I could show that a another organism could use language the 01:06:56

humans have but it didn't work it didn't work thank you very much dr terrace i hope somebody 01:07:01

can still talk to him in any event i didn't care about the language argument after a while it 01:07:07

didn't matter to me he might not have had sentences or grammar but there's no question 01:07:28

that there was communication going on and i saw it clearly talked about the trees the berries that he 01:07:35

found he liked to play favorite song play he knew what pop was a hash or 01:07:49

whatever. And he wanted to smoke a joint. Stone, smoke. Now, when we went out on walks 01:08:17

with Nim, Nim was one of us. If we smoked a joint, he smoked it with us in the circle 01:08:34

and we handed it to him. Chimps are like us. They're hedonistic. They like to do pleasurable 01:08:39

things they like to you know they like to have fun and I'm the health and who 01:08:47

doesn't and there's something and marijuana they weren't aggressive you 01:08:52

talk less you do different things you enjoy each other 01:09:06

Lillian and them lived together in the pig barn both of them didn't have many 01:09:10

chimp friends and then they became friends they were seen copulating and we 01:09:23

think Nim might have been the father of Lily's baby at the best time of my life 01:09:37

I still say that I've never had such a good time except maybe at a Grateful 01:09:56

Dead show pretty close I don't even know which one I actually being with Nim I'd 01:10:00

I'd rather be with Nim than Jerry, and that's, for me, that's saying something. 01:10:06

That's real? 01:10:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:10:15

That's a banana? 01:10:16

You want to eat the shoe? 01:10:19

That's a shoe. 01:10:23

This is a bear shoe. 01:10:24

And that's when Mahoney started showing up. 01:10:37

He was standing around looking at chimps and writing his pad and whatever, 01:10:42

And when someone, when I found out who he was, and I'm sure it didn't take long for me to figure it out, I was, ugh. 01:10:48

Obviously, he was checking out the chimps for the lab. 01:10:56

LEMSIP is best known by its acronym, L-E-M-S-I-P, which is Laboratory for Experimental Medicine and Surgery in Primates. 01:11:00

He represented the devil to me. 01:11:09

Most of the work that we did with the chimpanzees, for example, was testing various candidate vaccines for like hepatitis B, hepatitis C, HIV, AIDS. 01:11:13

I think it's very difficult to fund the kinds of research that I happen to be very much interested in. 01:11:30

It's been difficult to fund social research in general. 01:11:39

We heard about Dr. Lemon's problems, which were financial. 01:11:43

It was finally arranged that, yes, we would take a very large part of their colony. 01:11:50

I thought Lemon was trying to scare the university. 01:11:57

I thought they would go, 01:12:03

Gosh, you can't sell the medical lab. We've got to do something. 01:12:06

I thought the community would rise itself up. 01:12:09

Bob and I tried so hard with public appeal for something for the chimps and there was no response. 01:12:12

And then shortly after that, the chimps were indeed sold. 01:12:20

Of the chimps that are being sent off to the lab today, how many of them were subjects of the signing research? 01:12:32

Only one was restricted to signing research, this is NIMH. 01:12:38

As a chimp you've got no way of knowing what's happening to you, you're just suddenly cut off from seeing everything outside. 01:12:46

Suddenly, after a day and a half of constant driving, you get out the other end and you're in another sort of room. 01:13:01

room. I wouldn't say they were jumping with joy to find themselves in a new place. 01:13:09

Look on the role of being the one who chose which animals would go into which types of study and I 01:13:35

hated it these animals will be used on hepatitis vaccine safety tests it is a federal law that 01:14:09

before at that a new batch of vaccine can be released on the american market it must be tested 01:14:32

visiting four chimpanzees. 01:14:39

There's no way, in all honesty, there's no way you can carry out research on animals 01:14:42

and for it to be humane. 01:14:48

It can't be humane because you already put them in a cage. 01:14:50

That was already the first step and from there on it's downhill. 01:14:55

We realized that certain of the Oklahoma chimps could use sign language and were trying to 01:15:06

sign with us what we did was we wrote down on sheets of paper which we posted 01:15:13

all over the place on doors and walls and everywhere we could find of certain 01:15:19

signs and was hope that as time went by everyone would pick up at least a 01:15:24

certain amount of sign language I didn't see Nim as special above anyone 01:15:31

else in the group because they were all going through the same thing big big stink about it 01:15:46

in every way i could i called the press we bitched as much as we could the student bob ingersoll 01:16:25

he used to hound me every chance he got and I would start to get really annoyed 01:16:44

and then it dawned on me that he was the only one who cared nobody nobody except 01:16:49

the press helped us is there anything that you would consider doing to prevent 01:17:00

what is going to happen to him unfortunately there's nothing I can do 01:17:04

because legally NIMH is not mine. 01:17:09

NIMH was loaned to me for the duration of my project. 01:17:12

That project ran out of funds. 01:17:16

Somebody at the Boston Globe 01:17:24

told me to read a front-page story on that day. 01:17:26

He said, I think you'd be interested, 01:17:30

and I know you take unusual cases. 01:17:33

As a human being, I thought it was a kind of esoteric, 01:17:38

unique form of animal cruelty, all the worse for that. 01:17:41

And as a lawyer, I thought it was just plain illegal. 01:17:45

If the facts are as I'm being told 01:17:48

that this young chimp was brought up from infancy 01:17:51

in a human family, you can't stick him into a little cage 01:17:54

in some horrible medical lab 01:17:58

and use him for medical experiments. 01:18:00

It's per se animal cruelty. 01:18:02

Early on, I decided this. 01:18:05

if this animal has been deliberately brought up from infanthood 01:18:07

to think of himself as human, 01:18:13

then if I'm going to represent him, 01:18:16

I have to treat him like a human client. 01:18:18

Give him his day in court. 01:18:21

Henry and I, Mr. Herman, 01:18:25

were in communication pretty much every day. 01:18:28

He used a really cool strategy, actually. 01:18:32

He said, hey, this Tim can speak for himself. 01:18:34

Let's bring him into court and let him talk. 01:18:37

What I had ready as a trial exhibit was a steel cage 01:18:39

and a couple of strong guys with a pole ready to carry it into court 01:18:43

and I was going to get Nim to go into a frenzy and signal out, out, out. 01:18:48

And I believe the judge said something to the effect 01:18:52

that I'm not letting a fucking chimpanzee come in here 01:18:56

and make a mockery of my courtroom or something to that effect. 01:18:59

And that's when I said I'm going to bring in effect a habeas corpus petition 01:19:03

on behalf of Chimp, bring him to court. 01:19:06

Our opponents were pigheaded, but they weren't stupid. 01:19:14

They realized that win, lose, or draw, once I got into court, 01:19:18

they'd be losing. 01:19:21

Because even if the judge refused to hear them, 01:19:22

the media attention would have been devastated. 01:19:25

And the dean of the medical faculty said, that's it. 01:19:29

Get that Chimp out of here. 01:19:32

Before anything could happen, swooping down, 01:19:41

like in some Ragnarian drama, comes Cleveland Amory. 01:19:46

I want this to be a place where those animals that 01:19:55

have been abused, that have been misused, 01:20:00

will finally and forever have a place that they never 01:20:03

will have to fear again. 01:20:08

Mr. Amory had, up until then, perhaps a well-deserved reputation for doing important work for animal rights. 01:20:12

And he just went and buys the chimp, takes him to his black horse ranch, or whatever it was called, and says, I am saving Nim. 01:20:19

Leaving Amory to the rescue again, Nim will live here for the rest of his natural life. 01:20:30

Here my story ends, my troubles are over, and I am at home. 01:20:38

and that's what it says as you drive into black beauty ranch he was the only 01:20:42

animal we ever bought and we didn't know a thing about chimpanzees but we just 01:20:49

thought it was better what we could do was better than where he was it was 01:20:53

never meant to be a home for caged animals it is really a home for abused 01:21:00

and abandoned equine animals that's animals just with hooves we were 01:21:07

got gassed that he would just pick up this chimp, transport him to a horse ranch somewhere 01:21:16

in the middle of nowhere, and there was nobody there who knew how to take care of a chimp. 01:21:22

We brought him to Black Beauty and built a house for him. It was a big kind of a square 01:21:31

place and it had a porch outside so that he could go outside and he had all sorts of toys 01:21:38

to play with, but it was solitary. Chimps are social animals and you can't just put 01:21:42

one chimp in a box and expect everything to be cool some of the time was sitting like this in 01:22:00

the corner and you just thought what is he thinking what is he missing what can we do 01:22:15

will you please be sure to stop off here in the nation's capital we had a tv down and then he 01:22:20

broke that and then we put one up in the ceiling and he found a way to get there well okay you 01:22:26

don't get a television if that's going to be your attitude i wrote letters to cleveland bitching at 01:22:33

him about how leaving them there alone was virtually torture not only they not care what 01:22:41

i thought they wanted me as far away from them as possible and they wanted to make that pretty clear 01:22:58

and they did make that pretty clear you know if you come here you'll be arrested 01:23:05

i i i felt it you know and i just wanted to like i don't know i he got out a number of times 01:23:09

what he wanted to do was go in the ranch house be in the ranch house be with people sleep in a bed 01:23:51

we had a bed for him in his house we never slept in the bed in his house 01:24:00

one time when he came in the house there was a little white poodle thing and just barked and 01:24:03

barked and barked at this chimpanzee coming through the door he just picked it up and 01:24:11

swung him against the wall he meant to shut the dog up but of course he killed the dog 01:24:15

there was another time when he went in the house and he picked up a chair and threw it through the 01:24:20

window this this is a very miserable chimpanzee you know he'd had such a checkered life and he 01:24:24

gone from here to here to here to here to here they should be left they should 01:24:38

not be taken away from their mothers in the first place I knew that Nim was 01:24:43

there I didn't know anything about the quality of his life there I you heard 01:24:59

good things and bad things and so on and I thought when I go so we all flew out 01:25:03

to Texas we go to the ranch we meet the people taking care of him he was alone 01:25:11

He was the only chimp there. 01:25:17

I happened to be looking at him when Stephanie got out 01:25:26

of the car, and he saw her, and he recognized her right away. 01:25:28

And the look on his face was just, oh, now you come. 01:25:33

Now you come. 01:25:37

Now I've been through all this, and now you come. 01:25:38

He definitely recognized us. 01:25:45

Whether he was happy to see us, I don't know. 01:25:48

He wasn't particularly attractive to me. 01:25:54

Now that he was an adult chimpanzee, I didn't have a, oh, isn't he beautiful or anything like that. 01:25:57

He was, he was, I didn't know him. 01:26:02

My mother decides that she wants to go into the enclosure with Nim, which didn't, which happened sort of, I'm going to go in with Nim. 01:26:07

We said to her, he doesn't look like he's going to welcome you, so maybe you shouldn't go into his facility. 01:26:19

I was curious. Is he going to sign? What's going to happen? What's it going to be like? 01:26:27

Stephanie, please don't go in there. He's not in a good mood. 01:26:31

You know, you can tell he's not in a good mood. 01:26:34

Opened the gate and walked in. 01:26:40

And then went up to the, like, first and a half story, something like that, pretty high up. 01:26:43

And I realized how much danger I was in. 01:26:49

He came down, and then it was a blur. 01:26:57

He grabbed her by the ankle, and he starts dragging her, 01:27:03

running back and forth, literally like a rag doll, 01:27:06

just pulling her back and forth. 01:27:09

I think he was going to kill her. 01:27:10

He was going to swing her against the wall, 01:27:11

and then swing her against the wall again. 01:27:13

There was nothing loving about it. 01:27:14

He was furious. 01:27:16

I remember being in discussions about getting the gun 01:27:20

and not getting the gun, yeah. 01:27:23

So they got a gun. 01:27:26

No, he's not going to kill her. 01:27:28

He's just really pissed off. 01:27:35

Things dissipate, and he sort of wandered off, 01:27:39

and I was able to get out of the door. 01:27:41

I have no idea how long the whole thing lasted. 01:27:43

The fact that he didn't kill her meant a lot, 01:27:48

because he could have. 01:27:52

And he would have been dead, because they 01:27:54

would have shot him. 01:27:56

I had abandoned him and he had managed to grow up and I had walked back in as if I had not abandoned him and he said no. This is my space. I'm going to put you in your place, but I'm not going to hurt you. 01:27:57

we had done so much damage removing him from what his life should have been we exploited his human 01:28:18

like nature without regard to his chimpanzee nature we were co-opting him right from the 01:28:37

beginning it was wrong about a year after Nim was sold to the fund they 01:28:43

purchased a female chimpanzee to be with him around ten years after that I heard 01:29:24

she was in failing health I was worried that Nim was gonna be on his own again 01:29:30

that same time I was told that a new guy had taken over the ranch and his name 01:29:35

was Chris Byrne and so I approached Chris about visiting them and once I met 01:29:39

Chris I was really really reassured that things were going to be much better for 01:29:51

from him. Look, man. Somebody's coming to see you. Oh, he's got his hackles up. Hey, it's okay. Hi, 01:29:56

man. What's up, bud? Yeah, he's gonna do a couple of minutes of this. What's up? Who am I? Who am 01:30:06

I said to Chris, I have a way to help you and I know I can help you to get out of the 01:30:19

chimps. So let's work together. 01:31:02

Buddy, things are improving. Things are way improving. 01:31:09

It's taken a while though. It's taken a long time. It hasn't been easy. 01:31:13

On August the 10th, 1995, the Dean of NYU Medical Center announced that 01:31:18

Clemson would be closed and I saw I'm going to try and save as many of the 01:31:26

chimps as I can but in a very quiet way secretly 01:31:33

that's where Bob came in through the secret network what's up man who is this 01:31:42

over here who is this over here now who is it this is gonna be your new roommate 01:31:49

How do you think, Midge? I told you it would be nice, didn't I? 01:31:56

Jim Mahoney moved literally 50, 60 chimps. 01:32:20

And we did indeed get two chimps from Lemsip through Mahoney to Black Beauty Ranch. 01:32:25

Midge was a youngish adult male and Lulu was very gentle we immediately went to her defense 01:32:32

and Nim came over very good Lulu she's so good yeah your friend I think Midge and Lulu 01:32:48

really helped him out enormously noises for what's what's the name of this hey I'm Nim's 01:32:58

It means what? Soda pop, I know. 01:33:10

Things were as good as could be expected 01:33:12

based on everything you know that had gone on previous. 01:33:15

Oh, yeah, that's so good, man. Isn't it good? 01:33:20

It wasn't exactly perfect, but it was pretty damn good. 01:33:22

Chimps are truly wonderful animals. 01:33:43

They're very forgiving, the vast majority of them. 01:33:48

They'll forgive you. 01:33:56

Thank you. 01:33:58

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