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Ponencia plenaria: Lid King
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II CIEB: Ponencia plenaria de Lid King
Well, so good morning to everybody.
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Thank you very much for being here today, again,
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second day of the International Conference on Bilingual Education.
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I have the great pleasure to introduce Lyd King.
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Lyd King is a graduate in modern languages from the University of Cambridge.
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he has extensive experience of language teaching at all levels and in all phases he's a specialist
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of in language learning pedagogy he was an advisor materials developer and chief examiner before
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becoming director of the Center for information and length on language teaching and research
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SEALT in 1992. I have to say that when I went to London, appointed as education
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counselor at the Spanish Embassy, I met SEALT a few days after my arrival and
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since that moment we are, I think, good friends. I have to say that LEAD helped
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us in our work. He supported all the embassies trying to do their job, that is, promoting
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their languages. My job in the UK was to promote Spanish. Other embassies had to promote their
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own languages. And Lid, as director of SILT, was very supportive at all times with us,
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and we worked together, I think, very well,
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and it was a very pleasant period.
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In 2003, he left SILT because he was appointed
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as what they called at that time the champion of languages,
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which is the director of the National Languages Strategy,
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I think, yeah.
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So in September 2003, he took up the post of National Director of Languages within the Department of Education and Skills at that time.
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and with responsibility for the effective implementation of the National Languages Strategies
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and its centerpiece of introducing an entitlement to language learning for all pupils in Key Stage 2 by 2009-2010.
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He coordinated the National Implementation Strategy for Primary Languages between 2003 and 2010.
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His role has also involved working with key partners to promote language learning and giving strategic advice to ministers on languages.
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Between 2006 and 2007, Lyd worked with Lord Daring on the languages review of which he is co-author.
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This updated the national strategy and set out a range of initiatives aimed at reforming
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languages education in England.
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Between October 2008 and March 2010, he continued his work as National Director for Languages
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on behalf of the DCSF, which was the name of the Department for Education, but within
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the languages company created for that purpose.
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Dr. King also works at European level.
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He has coordinated two European projects since 2008, Linguanet Worldwide and Languages in
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Europe.
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He is currently a member of the Comité Stratégique sur les Langues, advising the French Education Ministry.
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I have to say that Lyd and I, we talk in French.
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We have always talked in French, and we still do.
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He is also Honorary Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Linguists
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and Officier dans l'Ordre des Palmes Académiques.
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So I think it's a very good CV, and I welcome Lyd, and I give him the floor.
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Merci. Thank you, Xavier.
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I've come with an interesting CV, perhaps,
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but today I've come from a different country.
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it's called Political Country
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and I hope I'll come as a
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friendly native speaker
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to Clill Land
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to try and tell you a few things about
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what we think in Political
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Country about Clill Land
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or maybe give you some insights
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of course
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in one way it's a very simple
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matter
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I've had a fantastic day listening to
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all of your ideas and plans and
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the vibrancy and the enthusiasm
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you can touch it here, even when you think things aren't so wonderful,
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and that's important to know as well.
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But what is the big deal? What is the idea?
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It's really a very simple one.
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30 years ago, one of my predecessors at CILT,
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talking about what we then called intensive language learning,
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said this, the most significant feature of intensive language learning
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is the use of the language for some other purpose than merely learning it.
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that's it simple question is how do we do it we found a simple during the
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recent period we produced with Doe and another colleague Bernadette Holmes some
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guidelines on CLIL in England towards an integrated curriculum and at the
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beginning of that we said you know what's the big deal there's nothing new
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about linking language with meaning that's what we do when we learn to speak
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we learn to speak for purpose to communicate meaning
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and that helps us to access the world
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and the language we use also shapes our understanding of the world
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and there is a tradition in language learning
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foreign language learning if you like
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of that same accessing meaning
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in fact I just reminded myself
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reading a little article in here
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written by a very young woman called Doe Coyle
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because this book is a little bit old now
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in partnership with
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another very learned man
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about this question
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and he started off by saying
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of course this all began with the ancient Romans
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who used to use Greek slaves
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to communicate with their children
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about real things and then they would learn language
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so what we are doing
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now
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seen from that perspective is a simple thing
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however and perhaps
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we should regard it as something normal
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and when I looked around in preparing for this
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because it's not
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the center of my expertise I discovered that bilingual experiences are happening across
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Asia across Africa using language to do something else than to learn language
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perhaps though by the way if you were interested we're revising this at the moment because all of
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the political framework from political land is out of date so it needs to be changed but it will
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make it better you can still see it either by going to that website or by sending me an email
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if you're interested because I didn't bring lots of copies with me but you might be interested
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Xavier was talking about the situation the English situation and how many good things
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have happened over recent years but also things have started to change as well and that's the
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first indication, if you like, or perhaps a little lesson, that politics can affect pedagogy
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because things can change. And there might be some lessons for you in that. Let me just tell you
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very briefly a brief history of CLIL in England. It'll be very brief. I'm not going to go back to
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the ancient Greeks, but we could have gone back to the learning of Latin in the Tudor grammar school,
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for example which was done in a very CLIL kind of way but more recently and things that I know
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about in the 1980s there were a lot of attempts to combine subjects and there was even joint
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certification I remember going to see some of Spanish business studies and so on so people
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were doing that in schools then DoCoil pops up around that period of time there was some
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development of support and networks, training, ideas,
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a lot of it going on at Nottingham University,
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where Doe was then.
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We had embassy support, which Javier mentioned yesterday,
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and the development of some showcase schools.
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SILT, where I was working,
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got some money to do a little project.
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Doe was involved in it again,
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working with schools to try and come up with some ideas
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about how to do this thing.
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We called it CLIP.
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It was content and language integrated project.
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We like the clip, the idea of clip.
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2007 was actually quite important
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because the language review that Xavier mentioned
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gave an opening for really rethinking our languages curriculum
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in which content became a very central element of it.
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For some very concrete political reasons, I have to say,
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we found that lots of our pupils were being turned away from language
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because they found it boring and they found it difficult.
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And this was seen as a way of actually changing that situation,
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which is what the politicians wanted to happen.
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So politics impinged on that very well,
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and that developed, that was the stimulus
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for the guidelines that I just mentioned.
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And so that was going very well until we had an election.
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In 2011, we had an election and everything stopped.
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So just a little...
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Now, I'm not saying the same will happen with your election.
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I'm sure it went.
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but it can happen.
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Now, it doesn't stop.
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It changes.
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New things come.
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We have to rethink,
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and that's why the political aspect of this,
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I think, is very important.
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Okay, that's something about England.
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I just wanted to say that the context
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in which I'm talking to you about this
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is something that Do mentioned yesterday,
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the massive change in how learning takes place.
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I mean, the analogies with the ancient Greeks
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are very interesting,
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and maybe the essence of things stays the same.
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But we have moved from that, that's Erasmus, I think,
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image of learning, a wise man maybe talking to two or three wise
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or not so wise, probably boys,
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to this cartoon which is learning in the 21st century.
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I don't know if you can see that.
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C'est le cours d'anglais, je ne sais pas, j'entends rien.
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This is learning.
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For those of you who don't know French, is this the English lesson?
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I don't know, I can't hear anything.
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There are so many people. Mass education. How do we transpose our ideas about education into this massive desire and need for everybody to be educated to the highest possible level? That's one of our big challenges, which I guess you are part of resolving or attempting to solve or attempting to take forward.
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I just thought of something.
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This is a CLIL lesson, isn't it?
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So I should start off by doing some scaffolding.
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And I forgot to do the scaffolding.
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So here's the scaffolding.
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This is what we're going to do.
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I'm going to talk about what policy is.
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I'm going to ask the question, what is bilingual education?
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I'll come up with our working hypothesis on that fairly shortly.
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Talk a little bit about bilingual education in Europe,
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but lead up to what the key, as I see it, policy-related challenges is,
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the word from policy land.
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Okay, some preliminary issues, though, about policy.
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Now, again, I refer to some of the work that we did.
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You might want to...
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If anybody's interested, I can give you contact of it.
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It's a book about where we think Europe is going in policy terms
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in relation to languages.
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And one of the things we talk about in that is how policy actually happens,
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as opposed to the way that people like us think that it happens.
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You probably think that policy happens logically through doing some planning,
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doing a bit of research, coming up with a plan, seeing whether you can cost it, and off you go.
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Well, some of it's like that,
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but actually reality is mediated in different ways,
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and we explain this in greater detail there.
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I just want to leave you some thoughts in relation to this.
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One element is the vision.
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You all have a vision, I think,
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and it's very important to have a vision.
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What do you think?
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Why is this such a great thing that you're trying to do?
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What are your objectives in relation to children
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and children's understanding of the world?
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because that probably is one of the visions you have
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and the things that drive you most of all.
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But there's also the actual decisions,
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the laws and the regulations,
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the laws about the curriculum,
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what can you teach, what can't you teach,
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whatever it might be.
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And then there's a third lot of things
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which are very interesting,
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which is actually performance.
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What we actually do.
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And there is very often a dislocation
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between any of those three.
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For example, in many countries in Europe,
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the statement about which languages are taught
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is not the same as which languages are actually learnt.
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There's usually a much larger range of languages
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which could be taught than are actually taught.
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And so the policy is the combination of all of those things.
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If you're interested in those issues,
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please read the book, because I think it is fascinating to find out.
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Particularly come with somebody who didn't originate in policy land
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and comes to see how these things happen and what happens,
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sometimes for individual prejudices by ministers.
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If I give you one little example,
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I don't want to get too anecdotal because there's not time.
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One of our very important policies
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was a new assessment system called the Languages Ladder,
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which I think was very good,
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and it fitted into making small steps small advances in languages there was a very good
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vision for having that and a very good pedagogical reason for doing it one of the reasons that we
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were able to do it was the minister at the time who is now the plenipotentiary foreign secretary
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for the european union liked the idea of her children getting swimming certificates which
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they could put on the wall in the bath so she said why isn't there something like that for
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languages. Oh, yes, minister, we just thought of that. Here we are. So they can be decided
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because of prejudices by ministers, sometimes good ones, sometimes not so good ones, but
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I won't mention those. So policy is not just what is written down. It's the way that people
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behave, and it is the customs and traditions that people have. Within that, there are also
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So three key issues about policy, which have some relevance to our discussions this week
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I think. The first one is the relationship between explicit and implicit policy. I kind
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of touched on that already. The idea, what we think, is that policy is decided in this
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logical way and we want a new policy on languages, the objective is to increase the number of
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people studying Spanish, so we've researched it, we'll put this into place, we'll measure
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and see how well we've done, etc., etc. That sounds like real policy. Formal language policy
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making, if you like. In reality, actually only a minority of policies function in that
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way, but in general, that's what we think should be the ideal form. When we actually
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look to see what influences language education choices, the language behavior of individuals,
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social groups and nations, we see that that's much too limiting.
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We need to distinguish that kind of language policy
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from the operation of economic, social, political forces
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that impact on people's choices.
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And the role of English in the world today is a very good case in point.
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I don't think there is any country, or no, there is no country in Europe,
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there are countries outside Europe which say that English is our main foreign language.
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but it is
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and those are choices that people
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individuals are making
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so understanding
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that between what is explicit
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and implicit is very important
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there are other ways that
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implicit
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policy
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can impact
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here's a statement
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which I never know who said
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I think it was Mao Zedong but it might have been Milton Friedman
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so it's either a very left wing
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or a very right wing person
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There's no such thing as no policy.
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An absence of policy means the decision not to do something.
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That's the case in the UK, for example.
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We have a policy that you don't have to study a language after 14.
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So the decision is that's not an absence of policy, that's a policy.
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And similar examples you can find.
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So there is no such thing as no policy.
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That could work in another kind of way.
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well, interestingly enough, there is no policy in the UK
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about what the official language is.
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We don't need one.
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There's no question about English.
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But some countries have it written into their constitution.
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So policy explicit is not the only thing.
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There's another key issue that we unearthed,
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which is the distinction and also the connection
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between language policy and policies about language.
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And what I mean by that,
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and it's something that somebody's already touched upon
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and it's very relevant to the CLIL argument, I think,
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which is that if you look around,
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you'll find many, many statements of policy about language.
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Many countries have language policies.
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I found this on the web.
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Sorry for the rather dramatic...
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Oops, I missed one.
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No, I've made a mistake.
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It's hidden, I think, by mistake,
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so I'll have to find it for you later.
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But what it is, it's a list of different kinds of policies,
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language policies.
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It doesn't matter too much in detail.
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And you will find that there are policies
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about assimilation policies, non-intervention policies,
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bilingual policies, etc., etc., etc.
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And he categorizes language policies throughout the world.
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What's interesting about that is not to go into the detail of what all those policies mean.
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For example, French has got an assimilation policy.
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French is a dominant language within the country, for example.
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But that very few of those policies, very few of those policies include mother tongue, foreign language, community language in a comprehensive policy.
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So we have a dislocation between what the policy is for Spanish, what the policy is for the teaching of English,
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sometimes even between the teaching of English and the teaching of other foreign languages and the teaching of immigrant languages,
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whereas we know there is a connection.
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And I think that's something that is very relevant to thinking about CLIL and how CLIL might develop.
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And the third issue is, despite ourselves, we who live in language land think that languages are so important.
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Politicians actually think it's pretty important, but there are other issues that they think are more important.
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There are big social economic drivers, and our language policy, and I think this is probably the key point to try to understand and see what implications it has for us, is part of that.
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certainly viewed from politics
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land. So for example
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you talked yesterday
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Xavier a lot about standards
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politicians throughout Europe
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are obsessed with standards, raising
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standards and they want to know
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that what you're doing is raising standards
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now you might think well there are
00:21:45
other things that are more important
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but that's what the politicians want to know
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and how much and what by
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and so those are issues you have to take
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into account whether you like that idea
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or not because it relates to issues of funding and finance.
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But they're not the only issues.
00:22:01
The dramatic slide that I mistakenly found,
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these were what I identified from my experience in England
00:22:08
working with policy makers as the main drivers
00:22:12
which impacted on education and impacted, therefore, on language.
00:22:16
That was one of them, raising education.
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The last government and the current government
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totally obsessed, raising, pushing standards up, measuring standards, getting standards higher.
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If we could prove that learning a foreign language, and I think we can,
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but we need to do that in polity terms, could raise your general cognitive level
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and convince the politicians of that, you would get funding for doing lots of things.
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Skills for employability and mobility has been another major,
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and we have a difficulty in England in that respect because people are not convinced
00:22:53
that you need a language other than English for employability and mobility.
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You don't have that problem in Spain.
00:23:04
I think everybody knows it to be the case, whether it is or not, that you need English.
00:23:05
And parents know that, headteachers know that, and so on.
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Another policy driver, though, is the softer things.
00:23:16
Civilisation and culture, our present government, are very keen on this.
00:23:19
In fact, one of our ministers recently said
00:23:23
it's a mark of being an Englishman
00:23:25
to be able to speak French
00:23:28
it's about the culture, about that joint
00:23:29
culture. Globalisation
00:23:33
competitiveness, I think
00:23:38
those are big issues
00:23:40
particularly post 2001
00:23:42
with the financial crisis
00:23:44
the economic arguments
00:23:46
for
00:23:47
multilingualism
00:23:48
very very important
00:23:53
arguments within the European
00:23:54
Union, less effective
00:23:56
within England and lastly
00:23:58
and this is very important for us but is
00:24:01
probably downplayed in some areas
00:24:03
the whole argument about social cohesion
00:24:05
and identity actually
00:24:07
I think this is one of the most critical arguments
00:24:09
about language which is sometimes ignored
00:24:11
we are living in these
00:24:13
really complicated complex
00:24:15
multilingual multicultural
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societies where
00:24:18
mobility becomes normal
00:24:21
intermarriage of all kinds
00:24:23
becomes normal
00:24:25
the world is transformed since the days of what even my youth and my parents my my grandfather
00:24:26
or father traveled only to fight wars that was it until the 1960s or 70s when we came in a little
00:24:33
car to spain and this was an amazing adventure well look now my my son's got a girlfriend in
00:24:40
mumbai and they fly out to mumbai to meet periodically the world has changed enormously
00:24:47
Our cities are such different things, so the whole identity question, social cohesion question, becomes actually a matter of very, very vital policy, and we see the effects of not dealing with that in riots in Paris and in London and in other places, in my belief, and the question is, what is what you got to do has got to do with that?
00:24:54
because I think it does because I think you are raising if you get things right a generation which
00:25:22
is open to difference as opposed to one which is closed and tending towards xenophobia so some big
00:25:28
policy issues which we need to think about in terms of what we do not every day because you've
00:25:35
got to get on with the teaching as well but they are important issues already we can see that I
00:25:41
just wanted to show you that here for example are some of the the Council of
00:25:48
Europe carried out some policy profiles of different countries in Europe I was
00:25:54
involved in one in Armenia which was fascinating and those are some of the
00:25:58
issues that they raised as being broad issues that met most countries where pro
00:26:01
profiles took place were saying about language and you will see again there
00:26:09
the quality standards and coherence issue coming in.
00:26:17
There's our English lesson again.
00:26:24
That's the challenge.
00:26:26
The challenge for you, the challenge for turning that mass
00:26:28
into real individuals who can really relate to others
00:26:36
in these complex societies and can be mobile
00:26:40
and can be successful in the current economy.
00:26:42
So if the politics are tricky,
00:26:50
What about the terminology? That's what I want to go on to now because there's a, oh sorry, there is something, excuse me a minute.
00:26:53
Okay, yeah. What about the terminology? Now we're okay.
00:27:12
I once spent a confused hour at a conference talking to somebody about bilingual education and she was actually listening most of the time
00:27:25
because she was a very forceful woman.
00:27:35
And it was only well into the conversation
00:27:37
that I understood what she meant.
00:27:40
And what she meant was teaching
00:27:41
in which everything was translated.
00:27:43
It was sort of like Michel Thomas.
00:27:48
That was what she called bilingualism.
00:27:53
So what is bilingualism?
00:27:55
What do you understand by bilingualism?
00:27:56
Now, I just checked up recently
00:27:59
and we can find bilingual programs in all of those places and more.
00:28:01
And we can find all of these different types
00:28:08
as they describe them of bilingual teaching.
00:28:13
And we could add in CLIL, which we don't have there,
00:28:17
or we could add in intensive.
00:28:18
So that was from my 21st century oracle called Google.
00:28:24
That's what we found.
00:28:31
So we've got all of those different kinds of bilingualism, and the key idea, if there is a common idea, is about learning through language new content, but a lot, and I think Fred might have something to say about that tomorrow, a lot of the bilingualism that we talked about there, is it, well here's a question for you, is it different from what you're doing?
00:28:32
Because a lot of it is about bilingual education for people whose first language is not the national language.
00:28:58
Bilingual education for immigrant populations and so on.
00:29:05
And there is a very... I don't apologise for spending some time...
00:29:11
Sorry, I keep on showing you that and then taking it away again. We'll get there in the end.
00:29:16
I don't apologise for spending a little diversion to talk about that
00:29:20
because I think it does have some relevance,
00:29:28
particularly in the way the policy people have reacted to it.
00:29:31
Particularly in the States, it's become a very controversial issue.
00:29:36
This cartoon illustrates it.
00:29:40
I don't know if you want to help out by reading the Spanish.
00:29:43
Hola.
00:29:48
Read the Spanish.
00:29:49
Why don't you want to learn English?
00:29:51
That's it. I'm declaring English as the official language.
00:29:54
ballots and store signs will all be in English
00:29:57
well that reminds me
00:30:01
bilingual education should be ended
00:30:06
I want to learn English
00:30:07
no comprendo
00:30:09
so
00:30:10
now
00:30:11
it has become a controversial issue
00:30:13
in the states
00:30:16
the idea behind that
00:30:17
bilingual programs
00:30:20
and I hesitate to say that
00:30:21
in front of real experts
00:30:24
but there's a lot of evidence for this.
00:30:26
This is the academic evidence,
00:30:28
is that you access knowledge not by suppressing your first language,
00:30:30
but by supporting your first language,
00:30:36
and through that you become better at learning the new language,
00:30:38
in this case English, or whatever it might be.
00:30:41
And I think that's pretty, as far as I can read it,
00:30:44
as much as anything's incontrovertible, it's incontrovertible.
00:30:46
So why this? Why has it changed?
00:30:50
Well, the policy change in the U.S. is quite instructive. 1968, Bilingual Education Act.
00:30:54
Congress mandated bilingual education in order to give immigrants access to education in their first language.
00:31:05
Federal spending up to $150 million by 1979.
00:31:12
1974, there was a Supreme Court ruling
00:31:19
which said that San Francisco schools
00:31:21
were violating students' rights
00:31:25
when they didn't give them special provisions.
00:31:27
Then, a debate.
00:31:34
2001, no child left behind,
00:31:36
which we imitated in the UK.
00:31:40
We had a very similar thing,
00:31:42
but that made no provision
00:31:43
for bilingual education,
00:31:46
but emphasised accountability in English only.
00:31:49
And then there was another court case in 2009.
00:31:53
The majority opinion stated,
00:31:57
research on early language learning instruction,
00:32:00
English language learning instruction,
00:32:02
indicates there is documented academic support
00:32:04
for the view that structured English immersion
00:32:07
is more effective than bilingual education.
00:32:09
Now, why are judges taking decisions about academic research?
00:32:13
I think that's the point.
00:32:19
These are mainly political, not pedagogic decisions.
00:32:21
So if you ignore politics, you are weakened.
00:32:25
You need to understand.
00:32:30
Now, what has been going on?
00:32:31
I don't pretend to know.
00:32:32
We have colleagues here who know far more about the U.S. than I do,
00:32:33
and I'm not holding up the U.S. as an example
00:32:37
because a very similar thing has happened in Europe.
00:32:39
And I'll say something about that in a minute.
00:32:42
Perhaps not as dramatically, but there has been that same kind of tendency.
00:32:44
What we end up is, there we are, the poor, sorry, bilingual education has been voted down,
00:32:49
so we can't help you anymore, you'll probably fall behind.
00:32:54
Oh well, and the poor little boy doesn't even know what she's talking about.
00:32:57
It's sad.
00:33:00
I say the same thing has happened in Europe.
00:33:01
There has been a retrenchment in the last few years, which I have observed,
00:33:04
which is showing a level of fear about supporting immigrant languages.
00:33:09
And all of the countries in the Education Committee
00:33:17
have pulled back from statements of giving support to minority languages,
00:33:20
stressing only the importance of learning the national language.
00:33:26
Well, nobody actually argues about learning the national language.
00:33:30
Of course everybody will learn the national language.
00:33:32
So I think there are some lessons there about how politics impinges on what is shown to be pedagogically the right thing to do and how multilingualism is a hot potato politically in the current era.
00:33:34
So that's something for us to think about.
00:33:54
But you might say, well, we're actually talking about something different.
00:33:56
I would just leave you that as a question.
00:34:01
Are we talking about something different?
00:34:02
Or are we missing something?
00:34:04
Because that aspect of CLIL or bilingualism isn't integrated into what we do all the time.
00:34:07
It's a question.
00:34:14
So what are we centrally talking about at your conference?
00:34:19
Well, here's what we said in our national guidelines. 2009 goes back to the simple definition.
00:34:23
Language is used as a tool to develop new learning. But just to go back to my previous
00:34:34
point, that's why I think we do conceptually need to bring the other bilingual experience
00:34:38
into that, because that's precisely what that's doing. Complementary value, process and use
00:34:45
language to acquire new knowledge and skills and make progress in both language and subject
00:34:51
area content. And you're also familiar, because though she doesn't like talking about this
00:34:57
too much, so I'm going to leave it, that's the four Cs, which are a kind of description
00:35:03
of the approach, but not a mantra or not something to be, you know, that's what I think those
00:35:09
concern is. That's what we're talking about, I think. So the other things I've mentioned
00:35:16
have impact on that, but that's our central theme for today.
00:35:21
So where is that going in Europe, and what are the messages from political land
00:35:28
which might help us to understand better?
00:35:35
Well, on one level, things look good.
00:35:40
Despite what I've said about multilingualism more broadly,
00:35:43
the European Commission is very committed to the idea of CLIL.
00:35:46
They describe its benefits, there's some of them,
00:35:51
but interculturality, improving competence,
00:35:57
developing multilingual interests,
00:36:01
I mean, I think you would want to be more radical than this.
00:36:07
The second one's interesting, isn't it?
00:36:11
It doesn't require more teaching hours.
00:36:12
That's not what you were telling us yesterday.
00:36:15
But that's what the European Union thinks.
00:36:18
But, so, it's positive.
00:36:21
they've got a website devoted to CLIL, the programs specifically support CLIL approaches.
00:36:23
That's very much paralleled by work that's going on in the Council of Europe. Recent work on the
00:36:32
languages of education or languages of schooling. It seems to move from one to another. There was
00:36:38
a conference last year in Geneva which was very interesting in that respect and where,
00:36:43
where, for example, a publication was produced about the language needed for science.
00:36:49
Those were the headings. I won't go into the detail, but it goes to quite a detail level,
00:36:58
not just about vocabulary, but about the linguistic and semiotic competencies needed for science
00:37:05
education. That impinges very much on what you're doing, but again, it's coming from
00:37:10
somewhere slightly different. I think it's
00:37:16
something you might want to look into. Personally,
00:37:18
I don't know what you think. I'm not sure.
00:37:20
I'm not convinced about
00:37:22
whether we have, in the context
00:37:24
of language learning,
00:37:26
language for science, language for history,
00:37:28
language for geography, language for...
00:37:30
I'm more interested
00:37:32
perhaps in the very simple
00:37:33
distinction between language for basic
00:37:36
communication to academic
00:37:38
language, which everybody needs to be able
00:37:40
to acquire and access
00:37:42
knowledge at a higher
00:37:43
level, the Bix and Kalp discussion
00:37:45
which I think somebody is talking about later
00:37:47
because I think actually
00:37:49
apart from the vocabulary
00:37:51
the language you need to operate
00:37:53
in science is not different from the language
00:37:55
you need to operate in history
00:37:57
if you're talking of presentation
00:37:59
the language acts that are important
00:38:00
however, that's a little bit
00:38:03
of an aside and let's leave it
00:38:05
so
00:38:07
all of that though
00:38:08
from the European Union, from the
00:38:11
Council of Europe is very much
00:38:13
at the level of ideas, the vision that I was talking about
00:38:17
earlier. It's yet to be translated into legislation
00:38:20
or regulation, but I think it probably does impact
00:38:23
on what people actually do.
00:38:26
The reality may be less developed
00:38:29
than the vision, but it's moving very far and
00:38:32
very fast. Of course, in Spain, I think you're
00:38:35
at the head. You might not always feel like it, but you are
00:38:38
in terms of the scope of what is being attempted
00:38:41
and the amount of thinking that is going into that process.
00:38:45
But it is happening.
00:38:52
If you look at Eurydice 2008, for example,
00:38:59
CLIL is listed in there in this P-Data book.
00:39:03
and every country in Europe
00:39:08
with the exceptions of Malta
00:39:11
and Luxembourg
00:39:13
no sorry, with the exceptions of
00:39:15
Greece, Iceland and Liechtenstein
00:39:17
and Denmark strangely enough
00:39:19
were doing some kind of CLIL work
00:39:21
the only countries, I got it
00:39:23
the wrong way around, the only ones where
00:39:25
old schools were involved in CLIL were
00:39:27
Malta and Luxembourg
00:39:29
but CLIL is very common throughout
00:39:30
Europe and of course that's a
00:39:32
formal position, you know more than I do
00:39:35
which moved on since then.
00:39:36
Even so, I'm still thinking about trying to grasp definition.
00:39:40
I think there are distinctions within Europe
00:39:46
because there are a range of practices.
00:39:49
Just one example, which could be an important distinction.
00:39:53
I was in Prague for a conference on bilingual French schools
00:39:56
a couple of years ago.
00:40:01
and also I've done quite a bit of work on policy in Bulgaria
00:40:02
and in many Eastern European countries
00:40:07
there are bilingual schools
00:40:11
which are quite clearly a very elitist kind of bilingual.
00:40:12
I've got no problem with that in itself.
00:40:17
They are, as somebody said,
00:40:20
to turn Czech engineers into French engineers
00:40:22
or whatever it might be
00:40:25
and they're based on selection
00:40:27
and that is what they are for.
00:40:30
That's a kind of bilingualism.
00:40:32
Now, I say I've got no problem with it
00:40:34
in the sense that I think we need
00:40:35
a very, very high level of bilingual competence
00:40:38
and that's for sure.
00:40:41
But elite bilingualism is nothing new.
00:40:43
We've had that for ages.
00:40:47
The British ruling classes have been quite bilingual
00:40:48
in German before the First World War
00:40:50
and since then in French.
00:40:53
The Russians used to be bilingual in French and so on.
00:40:54
We are now, I think, engaged in something different.
00:40:57
So understanding what the bilingualism is, is something I think quite important.
00:40:59
I think you're probably thinking of something rather different as well.
00:41:06
And that brings me really to what I wanted to say.
00:41:10
I mean, not I wanted to say everything that I've said, but the key point of what I wanted to say.
00:41:14
What are, that CLIL, bilingualism, immersion, whatever you want to call it, is not just about good ideas.
00:41:20
it's not just about pedagogy
00:41:28
it's got a policy and political significance
00:41:30
I think that in developing the work that you do
00:41:33
because you're at the forefront of this work
00:41:37
you need at least to understand that
00:41:39
to take account of political constraints and realities
00:41:40
not least financial ones
00:41:44
and also be clear about what you want and what you mean
00:41:45
positively as I've said
00:41:49
CLIL, bilingualism is trendy
00:41:52
and at the European level at least
00:41:55
people say it's a good thing. But take heed from the US example. It could change. So what
00:41:57
are the challenges as I see them? And you might think of others as well. Well, firstly,
00:42:04
the questions of definition. Is it bilingualism for a few or for many? Or is it both of them?
00:42:09
Is it bilingualism for monolinguals? Or is it bilingualism which supports existing bilingualism?
00:42:20
or is it both of those
00:42:28
and can they be made to work
00:42:30
and support each other and help each other
00:42:32
this is the good thing now
00:42:34
I don't have to answer the questions
00:42:37
second category of
00:42:39
policy, political type questions
00:42:44
what are the drivers
00:42:46
now you'll know this better for Spain
00:42:47
or for Madrid than I will
00:42:50
I talk about my own experience
00:42:52
but they are likely
00:42:54
to include I guess
00:42:56
standards and quality and how does that impact what you have to do and how can you answer that
00:42:58
question again i mentioned you know javier yesterday spoke a lot about that and i think
00:43:07
that there are some important discussions to be had then politicians want simple answers and they
00:43:14
want things quickly so if you say well this is going to be good the next state and they're going
00:43:20
to learn better, the next statement is, or the question is, when and how much?
00:43:27
So that means that after four years, they will be at this level that show me and they
00:43:35
want you to be able to do it. So you have to be able to also answer the question, yes,
00:43:41
but not if I only have one hour a week and I haven't got any resources and I don't have
00:43:46
many time to think about what I'm doing. It won't happen. So that's a dialogue.
00:43:52
Competitiveness and employability, is that the driver? I think it is in many countries.
00:44:01
English in particular is something that is being driven because of the view that you need English
00:44:05
to be employable. When we were in Armenia, one of the phrases that we heard time and time again,
00:44:13
every mother knows, it's always dangerous, isn't it, what every mother knows, every mother knows
00:44:18
that their children need, a university education, technological skills, and English.
00:44:24
That's it. That's Armenia.
00:44:32
Abu Dhabi, rich little country, a comprehensive national education reform strategy,
00:44:34
one of the recommendations issued recently at the Emirates Center for Strategic Studies and Research.
00:44:41
among the concerns we had heard
00:44:47
was how the United Arab Emirates
00:44:50
could reform its current educational programs
00:44:53
so that we are able to keep up
00:44:55
with the global scientific and research community
00:44:57
and what are the skills we must import on our pupils
00:44:59
so they can compete with international peers.
00:45:03
An essential element of that was English.
00:45:07
Or are the drivers social cohesion?
00:45:13
How do we articulate that argument?
00:45:16
so that the policy makers will see
00:45:18
that we are not talking about something soft
00:45:21
but something vital
00:45:24
in terms of the citizens that we are making for the future.
00:45:25
Are there other drivers
00:45:33
which drive policy in terms of education?
00:45:34
It could be.
00:45:39
Actually, I heard one yesterday.
00:45:39
It could be.
00:45:40
An example given there was
00:45:44
the school wants to stop from closing.
00:45:45
That's a driver.
00:45:48
or from declining
00:45:49
and so let's do something new
00:45:51
and let's build something.
00:45:53
That's politics.
00:45:54
Say you're a politician, you didn't know it.
00:45:56
And what are the systems you have to cope with?
00:45:59
We have a very heavy assessment regime in the UK
00:46:02
so the first question people ask about bilingual programmes
00:46:05
is yes, but will it affect their geography?
00:46:08
Will they make progress in the other subjects?
00:46:12
And actually you have to answer that question
00:46:14
because we're not doing CLIL
00:46:16
so that their languages get good.
00:46:18
It's for their acquiring new learning.
00:46:20
And what about teacher training?
00:46:24
The big question for everybody.
00:46:25
How are we going to cope with those issues of teacher training?
00:46:27
And the curriculum.
00:46:30
How is the curriculum set up?
00:46:31
Very much an issue for particular countries
00:46:34
because of particular frameworks and resources in general.
00:46:41
And ideology. What are the ideologies that matter if you're thinking of developing and interfacing with politics?
00:46:49
Well, one of them is to do with the national language.
00:46:59
In Armenia, to quote that example again, it is law that you can only teach in Armenian.
00:47:01
Now, they get around that. They teach in Russian, they teach in English, and they teach in French, but they shouldn't.
00:47:09
So that can be an issue.
00:47:14
the same point was highlighted
00:47:16
in the Arab Emirate that I mentioned
00:47:19
one point was highlighted
00:47:21
was the need to make sure
00:47:22
that a dedicated bilingual curriculum
00:47:24
was developed
00:47:26
so that while pupils learn English
00:47:27
it is not at the expense of their mother tongue
00:47:29
and I think related to that
00:47:31
is the general role of English
00:47:34
and is English going to become
00:47:35
something different
00:47:37
from other foreign languages
00:47:38
I leave them as questions
00:47:39
because time is running out
00:47:43
and also
00:47:44
educational beliefs
00:47:47
our minister currently
00:47:48
is obsessed with grammar
00:47:51
that will be a question
00:47:52
that he wants to know, yes, when will they learn
00:47:55
the blue perfect tense
00:47:57
he asked that question
00:47:58
well we could laugh at that
00:48:00
answer but it doesn't really help much laughing
00:48:03
at ministers because they don't actually
00:48:05
make the good decisions then
00:48:07
so what's your answer
00:48:08
your minister might have the same view
00:48:10
and how does that relate to what you want to do?
00:48:12
You have to think about it.
00:48:16
So to go to a sort of conclusion,
00:48:18
I came here just to share some reflections,
00:48:22
to ask you some questions really from politics land.
00:48:25
It might help you think more about this exciting approach to learning.
00:48:29
I don't have answers.
00:48:33
Well, I've got a few, I think,
00:48:34
but I think you need to think of answers as well.
00:48:35
I'm sure that you need to think about those questions
00:48:39
because it's not just or even
00:48:41
perhaps mainly for the politicians
00:48:43
and I'm going to mention your talk again
00:48:45
just the realities of how you do things
00:48:47
and how you make change happen
00:48:50
because it happens at the level of a school
00:48:52
and an autonomia
00:48:54
and a region and a country as well
00:48:55
I hope
00:48:58
I've at least given you an insight
00:49:00
or lifted the curtain about how policy happens
00:49:02
what it can and can't do
00:49:04
and how they can help or hinder
00:49:06
what you're trying to do
00:49:08
because another point as well which I think
00:49:09
Clavier was trying to make, I'll just say it
00:49:12
in an image, one can get carried away
00:49:14
with things as well, and over enthusiastic
00:49:16
and over promise, in that sense
00:49:18
it can be just as dangerous to jump
00:49:20
onto a bandwagon as to stand in front
00:49:22
of a bus, it comes with the same result
00:49:24
so, but as a kind
00:49:26
of conclusion, I think
00:49:28
we can be positive, we know that
00:49:30
it works, the evaluations
00:49:32
of what you're doing have been in
00:49:34
Spain have been very positive
00:49:36
My experience is that headteachers, even in the UK, are very interested in this idea.
00:49:37
And I'll leave you with a view, I called it a view from the south and north,
00:49:42
because it was based on a review of the Australian policy carried out by Joe Labianco,
00:49:47
but also informed by Richard Johnston from Scotland,
00:49:56
who had reviewed some of your bilingual work here.
00:50:03
And the conclusion that Joe Lubyanko draws
00:50:08
is that if we are really going to make any sense
00:50:12
of language in the 21st century,
00:50:14
language learning in the 21st century,
00:50:19
there are two things that we need to do.
00:50:21
One, build on the linguistic capital of immigrants
00:50:23
because we have a gold mine of language
00:50:26
which at the moment is not brought into the school.
00:50:28
and the second, develop intensive or CLIL-type approaches
00:50:31
for the monolinguals as well.
00:50:35
Because conventional language learning doesn't really work
00:50:39
despite all of the investment that has been put into it.
00:50:44
And that was Richard's explanation of that,
00:50:48
referencing to Spain,
00:50:52
he calls it breathtaking in its scope
00:50:59
and its speed of implementation.
00:51:01
so I think what we are doing
00:51:03
what you're doing is something
00:51:06
very exciting, very
00:51:07
important for the development of
00:51:10
Europe as well as Spain
00:51:12
maybe
00:51:14
what I've said can help you
00:51:16
manage it better
00:51:17
not do it better, that's up to you
00:51:19
and I've got my last picture
00:51:21
that I found on Google
00:51:24
which sort of represents what we're trying
00:51:25
to do
00:51:28
Thank you very much
00:51:28
We have five minutes. I remind you that there are two simultaneous panels next to each other, while the questions are coming up.
00:51:34
One is about the media, where the media, the country, the world, the school and the magisterium will be present.
00:51:45
y otro panel simultáneo en el Salón de Grados,
00:51:53
donde estarán representantes de diversas embajadas presentes en España,
00:51:56
Estados Unidos, Reino Unido, Irlanda, Francia, Italia y Portugal.
00:52:01
Well, there are some questions.
00:52:08
I'll ask you the first one, which says,
00:52:24
as you are familiar with policies in many countries,
00:52:28
Do you see a raising interest in promoting bilingualism in other languages such as German, Spanish, or Chinese?
00:52:33
Don't you think we should have a more open perspective in this respect?
00:52:42
I think that's very interesting.
00:52:48
And I think, I mean, Do Coyle, for example, might know better than I do.
00:52:49
My impression is that a lot of the bilingual work of the kind that you're mainly discussing here is with English.
00:52:53
obviously not in England
00:53:02
but it's not entirely
00:53:03
there are some very good examples of German
00:53:05
I think working with German
00:53:07
French
00:53:10
also
00:53:11
some of that as I said is in the
00:53:12
more elite spectrum
00:53:16
and I think it will be quite interesting to see
00:53:18
whether in Europe
00:53:20
the differentiation between languages
00:53:21
and how we manage that
00:53:24
because some people
00:53:26
you mentioned the
00:53:28
comité stratégique
00:53:30
well I'm not allowed to say what happens there
00:53:33
but you could imagine that there are some French
00:53:35
academics who are still very concerned
00:53:37
about English
00:53:39
I think in Spain you've kind of relaxed
00:53:40
about it, I don't get the same
00:53:43
sense of it
00:53:45
what I say to people
00:53:46
like that is you need to find a way
00:53:49
and what we say in our book actually
00:53:51
you need to find a way to make English your friend
00:53:52
that English
00:53:55
can actually help multilingualism
00:53:57
and more bilingualism, it doesn't have to be an obstacle to it.
00:53:59
But what the result of that is going to be
00:54:04
is some quite differentiated levels of language learning
00:54:07
for different purposes and different people.
00:54:10
Sorry, I went off the point slightly.
00:54:13
Thank you very much.
00:54:17
Another question.
00:54:18
In the EU context, do you think that current statements
00:54:19
by ministers about foreign language teaching at primary level
00:54:23
Can in any way make up for the fact that languages become optional post-GCSE?
00:54:26
If you ask children if they wanted to study maths at the age of 14,
00:54:32
half of them would say no, or maybe more than half of them would say no.
00:54:36
So I'm not a great supporter of optionality,
00:54:40
but that's part of the politics, the political landscape in England.
00:54:43
Choice is the word, and the smallest possible compulsory curriculum.
00:54:47
So, no, I didn't agree with that.
00:54:53
What we see, on the other hand, what we do have to realize, and maybe that's the case here as well, I think it's the case in many countries, that many pupils of 14, 15, and 16 learn languages badly and don't like learning languages.
00:54:56
And that was what was happening, and head teachers were saying that, and teachers were saying that, and they said, we don't want these children who don't want to learn.
00:55:16
so it was more tricky than it seemed I still didn't agree with it I don't think that earlier
00:55:23
start will compensate what I think is that an earlier start could change the way that people
00:55:30
learn languages and change their attitude so they are more positive about it thank you some more
00:55:37
questions I'd like to ask you a personal question you you've been a director of shield for 11 years
00:55:43
I think, and then you've been the national champion for languages for seven years, so
00:55:50
I think you're the person in the UK, or at least in England, with most experience in
00:55:55
language teaching and learning. Could you tell us something about how the national languages
00:56:02
strategy has been implemented, if it has been successful or not, and what's going to happen
00:56:08
in the UK in the future, or in England?
00:56:13
Good question. Well, I can send you the article because we've done a review of that.
00:56:16
I think that the National Languages Strategy, particularly after 2007, had a very good orientation
00:56:21
because it defined for the first time the shape of language learning.
00:56:28
It was very successful in primary and had a very good model for introducing primary languages
00:56:33
and training the teachers, it was not there.
00:56:38
It had not been completed, certainly in secondary,
00:56:43
so there was still business to be done.
00:56:48
And the current government doesn't believe in strategies,
00:56:51
so things will have to be done in another way.
00:56:54
What is going to happen now is that we are reviewing the curriculum again,
00:56:57
and so there is a consultation about what the curriculum,
00:57:04
what should be in the curriculum
00:57:08
and what the content of the curriculum should be.
00:57:10
I'm very hopeful that languages will return into the curriculum.
00:57:12
What I'm not so clear about is what the form of that curriculum will be.
00:57:17
There will be possibilities for the kind of things we're talking about
00:57:21
because the idea is to free up the curriculum
00:57:25
and I know that both of the main education ministers
00:57:28
are interested in bilingual schools
00:57:32
but I think they're interested in
00:57:34
elite bilingual schools
00:57:36
rather than
00:57:37
a broader CLIL approach to languages
00:57:40
because they want to teach grammar
00:57:42
Thank you very much
00:57:44
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- Idioma/s:
- Etiquetas:
- Miscelánea
- Autor/es:
- Congreso Internacional de Enseñanza Bilingüe
- Subido por:
- Juan Ramón V.
- Licencia:
- Reconocimiento - No comercial - Sin obra derivada
- Visualizaciones:
- 756
- Fecha:
- 6 de enero de 2012 - 11:21
- Visibilidad:
- Público
- Descripción ampliada:
Ponencia plenaria de Lid King
Helping or Hindering Bilingual Education: The Role of the Policy Maker
- Duración:
- 57′ 50″
- Relación de aspecto:
- 3:2 El estándar usado en la televisión NTSC. Sólo lo usan dichas pantallas.
- Resolución:
- 720x480 píxeles
- Tamaño:
- 381.35 MBytes